Revvie®
Main Eventer
Somewhere between Reality, and the Absurd
Joined on: Jun 29, 2005 1:04:26 GMT -5
Posts: 4,327
|
Post by Revvie® on Dec 8, 2013 13:51:49 GMT -5
And what is wrong with people doing something that keeps them sane; not everyone is build to handle inherent meaninglessness. It is human to seek comfort, and as long as this comfort isn't violating your rights directly...again; I see nothing wrong with it. And yea, you sound full of hate, and anger. Fueled by it. It, at the very least, destroys your credibility when you speak. It's been established that peaceful practice on one's own home is perfectly acceptable. It's simply the imposition of those views as correct without legitimate evidence that creates an issue. We all have every right to be infuriated by such blatant disregard for logical structure & order. You're God's not a logical God? Then why would you bother trying to make sense of them? People deserve comfort & consolation to a point. The very purpose of therapy & coaching/educating of any kind is to assist people in their journey to self-reliance & clarity. Autistic people need help developing social skills, Athletes need help training their sport's techniques, & so on. There comes a time in everyone's life where you shape up or shut down. You have to stand on your own two feet & do something for yourself. This obviously doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help each-other, but there are circumstances where attempts to help turn into enabling & hinder the person's progress. Maturity is partially defined by confronting uncomfortable truths of existence. I failed to be the desired companion of my favorite woman on earth. I accept this in order to let her live a happy life, & use it as initiative to improve myself & help others. That is an act of maturity. Evolutionarily we are immature species, So that is what it is. As far as your definition of a maturity, or partial, I don't agree directly. I agree that one must accept certain things about life, and I can concede that one should better themselves. The problem comes in, I don't care what answers they come to, as long as they are trying to be a better version of themselves. I personally see maturity as the ability to accept responsibility for what you say, do , etc in the world. Not so much your reason for it. If a person is being better because they have religion, then I don't dwell on the details of why they are being better, or what meaning they find in it. And the line where comfort ends is a very blurry one, and contextual; situational. To lump it out there like you have found it seems kind of naïve.
|
|
|
Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 8, 2013 14:13:39 GMT -5
And what is wrong with people doing something that keeps them sane; not everyone is build to handle inherent meaninglessness. It is human to seek comfort, and as long as this comfort isn't violating your rights directly...again; I see nothing wrong with it. And yea, you sound full of hate, and anger. Fueled by it. It, at the very least, destroys your credibility when you speak. It's been established that peaceful practice on one's own home is perfectly acceptable. It's simply the imposition of those views as correct without legitimate evidence that creates an issue. We all have every right to be infuriated by such blatant disregard for logical structure & order. You're God's not a logical God? Then why would you bother trying to make sense of them? People deserve comfort & consolation to a point. The very purpose of therapy & coaching/educating of any kind is to assist people in their journey to self-reliance & clarity. Autistic people need help developing social skills, Athletes need help training their sport's techniques, & so on. There comes a time in everyone's life where you shape up or shut down. You have to stand on your own two feet & do something for yourself. This obviously doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help each-other, but there are circumstances where attempts to help turn into enabling & hinder the person's progress. Maturity is partially defined by confronting uncomfortable truths of existence. I failed to be the desired companion of my favorite woman on earth. I accept this in order to let her live a happy life, & use it as initiative to improve myself & help others. That is an act of maturity. Here's the problem. Your idea of practicing religion in one's home and no where else is completely different than everyone else's. To you, this means I don't talk about my religion to anyone else. Ever. I can't wear a cross or a star of David or a Yin/Yang or whatever. I can't vote based on my religious beliefs. I can't campaign for politicians based on my religious beliefs. I can't decide what businesses to patronize based on my religion. I can't put religious bumper stickers on my car. I can't tell people how great my religion is and why they should practice it too. That's where the problem is.
|
|
|
Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Dec 8, 2013 14:53:24 GMT -5
It's been established that peaceful practice on one's own home is perfectly acceptable. It's simply the imposition of those views as correct without legitimate evidence that creates an issue. We all have every right to be infuriated by such blatant disregard for logical structure & order. You're God's not a logical God? Then why would you bother trying to make sense of them? People deserve comfort & consolation to a point. The very purpose of therapy & coaching/educating of any kind is to assist people in their journey to self-reliance & clarity. Autistic people need help developing social skills, Athletes need help training their sport's techniques, & so on. There comes a time in everyone's life where you shape up or shut down. You have to stand on your own two feet & do something for yourself. This obviously doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help each-other, but there are circumstances where attempts to help turn into enabling & hinder the person's progress. Maturity is partially defined by confronting uncomfortable truths of existence. I failed to be the desired companion of my favorite woman on earth. I accept this in order to let her live a happy life, & use it as initiative to improve myself & help others. That is an act of maturity. Here's the problem. Your idea of practicing religion in one's home and no where else is completely different than everyone else's. To you, this means I don't talk about my religion to anyone else. Ever. I can't wear a cross or a star of David or a Yin/Yang or whatever. I can't vote based on my religious beliefs. I can't campaign for politicians based on my religious beliefs. I can't decide what businesses to patronize based on my religion. I can't put religious bumper stickers on my car. I can't tell people how great my religion is and why they should practice it too. That's where the problem is. Well then let me change my mind. Peaceful religious practice? Sure. Using religious beliefs over critical thinking when making political decisions? Extremely ineffective & the day it's gone for good will be a sweet one indeed. Secondly, the entire debacle that is the religious person's desire to convert others to their religion is exactly why I wish they would finally throw away the "Religion" sign for a beautiful white lettered, green backing "Mythology" sigh at Barnes & Noble. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you can use a faith-based system to make educated decisions on political issues. How does it effect you if people of the sane gender are recognized as married by their government? I'm not accusing you of homophobia, I'm just saying this is a valid example of how religious beliefs perform poorly in the field of tolerant decision making. If you(anyone) don't believe it to be altruistic, at least be tolerant. When I said peaceful practice in private, I'm referring to the attemt of forcing your beliefs on others. Present your evidence of your system's success & validity & let that evidence speak for itself. I haven't told you outright to give up your religious beliefs. I've presented questions on why you keep it, shed light on it's demerits, & states valid points on why I fight for the separation of religious institutions & government, & advocated the removal of all power of relugious figures outside of their designates buildings & organizations, but I never said outright "Stop practicing religion. Become an athiest". Especially since I don't think about the fact that people would generalize me as one as if I used it to give myself identity. It's a byproduct of my love philosophy & science. I hate superstition, mysticism, & tyranny because I adore logical deduction, rational inference based on truth, the pursuit of knowledge, clarity & justice. I question everything because I really know very little, where most religious people think that we should either be content with not understanding the world or believe that isn't much to understand past the pulpit & the ends of their nose. Do not be ignorant enough to propose a theory claiming there is no need for evidence, & expect anyone to do anything beside dismiss you without evidence or feel obligated to provide you with evidence of their theories. They might believe you, they might even claim they already knew that, but you can't expect a coherent person in a universe that seemingly only functions outside of logic when it's observers are missing information to simply ignore their need for evidence.
|
|
|
Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Dec 8, 2013 15:11:47 GMT -5
It's been established that peaceful practice on one's own home is perfectly acceptable. It's simply the imposition of those views as correct without legitimate evidence that creates an issue. We all have every right to be infuriated by such blatant disregard for logical structure & order. You're God's not a logical God? Then why would you bother trying to make sense of them? People deserve comfort & consolation to a point. The very purpose of therapy & coaching/educating of any kind is to assist people in their journey to self-reliance & clarity. Autistic people need help developing social skills, Athletes need help training their sport's techniques, & so on. There comes a time in everyone's life where you shape up or shut down. You have to stand on your own two feet & do something for yourself. This obviously doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help each-other, but there are circumstances where attempts to help turn into enabling & hinder the person's progress. Maturity is partially defined by confronting uncomfortable truths of existence. I failed to be the desired companion of my favorite woman on earth. I accept this in order to let her live a happy life, & use it as initiative to improve myself & help others. That is an act of maturity. Evolutionarily we are immature species, So that is what it is. As far as your definition of a maturity, or partial, I don't agree directly. I agree that one must accept certain things about life, and I can concede that one should better themselves. The problem comes in, I don't care what answers they come to, as long as they are trying to be a better version of themselves. I personally see maturity as the ability to accept responsibility for what you say, do , etc in the world. Not so much your reason for it. If a person is being better because they have religion, then I don't dwell on the details of why they are being better, or what meaning they find in it. And the line where comfort ends is a very blurry one, and contextual; situational. To lump it out there like you have found it seems kind of naïve. We are practically infantile in evolutionary terms, but I don't see how the attribute of maturity I mentioned is contrarian to what you added. To be responsible for what you say & do is inseparable from the reason behind it. True altruism is done out of one's desire to be good & help others live peaceful, fulfilling lives. That also means refraining from certain actions to avoid hindering this goal. If the only reason you don't rape, kill, steal, & commit crimes is because you believe the human soul can burn at all(let alone for all eternity), then you're not actually moral. Children are naturally more sociopathic than healthy adults. To mature is to grow morally since wise people are morally upright. Intelligence can be as evil as piss, but wisdom requires a tranquil & vigilant morality. Comfort is solely dependent upon one's perception of the universe. Since we are of the same species, we've been able to come to general concesus on several things that give us comfort & the things that cause our fears in the first place. I wasn't being broad in my statement. I was defining an attribute of a fully matured consciouness. We are multifaceted, highly diversified creatures. This doesn't change the fact that eventually we must come to terms with reality & attempt to change either the flaws of the reality itself or if that's not possible, we need to change our perspective on that with which reality has presented us. You can have a half empty carton of milk, or be thankful that the oxygen isn't highly toxic. This of course, implies that we desire to be our most coherent selves so that we can minimize the limitations of how fulfilled(& by extension happy, peaceful, content, confident etc.) we can feel.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Ragnarok on Dec 8, 2013 15:38:53 GMT -5
It's been established that peaceful practice on one's own home is perfectly acceptable. It's simply the imposition of those views as correct without legitimate evidence that creates an issue. We all have every right to be infuriated by such blatant disregard for logical structure & order. You're God's not a logical God? Then why would you bother trying to make sense of them? People deserve comfort & consolation to a point. The very purpose of therapy & coaching/educating of any kind is to assist people in their journey to self-reliance & clarity. Autistic people need help developing social skills, Athletes need help training their sport's techniques, & so on. There comes a time in everyone's life where you shape up or shut down. You have to stand on your own two feet & do something for yourself. This obviously doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help each-other, but there are circumstances where attempts to help turn into enabling & hinder the person's progress. Maturity is partially defined by confronting uncomfortable truths of existence. I failed to be the desired companion of my favorite woman on earth. I accept this in order to let her live a happy life, & use it as initiative to improve myself & help others. That is an act of maturity. Here's the problem. Your idea of practicing religion in one's home and no where else is completely different than everyone else's. To you, this means I don't talk about my religion to anyone else. Ever. I can't wear a cross or a star of David or a Yin/Yang or whatever. I can't vote based on my religious beliefs. I can't campaign for politicians based on my religious beliefs. I can't decide what businesses to patronize based on my religion. I can't put religious bumper stickers on my car. I can't tell people how great my religion is and why they should practice it too. That's where the problem is. You keep sidestepping all my points. This is a first for you. I'm practically begging you to prove me wrong about the contradictions and any of the other valid points I've made. I just want to see if you can dispute anything I've said, I'll keep an open mind. I'm giving you a chance to prove me wrong, you take any other opportunity to prove others wrong, why are you throwing in the towel for this one?
|
|
Fleet Foxes
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jul 9, 2012 10:27:47 GMT -5
Posts: 1,117
|
Post by Fleet Foxes on Dec 8, 2013 18:27:21 GMT -5
Evolutionarily we are immature species, So that is what it is. As far as your definition of a maturity, or partial, I don't agree directly. I agree that one must accept certain things about life, and I can concede that one should better themselves. The problem comes in, I don't care what answers they come to, as long as they are trying to be a better version of themselves. I personally see maturity as the ability to accept responsibility for what you say, do , etc in the world. Not so much your reason for it. If a person is being better because they have religion, then I don't dwell on the details of why they are being better, or what meaning they find in it. And the line where comfort ends is a very blurry one, and contextual; situational. To lump it out there like you have found it seems kind of naïve. We are practically infantile in evolutionary terms, but I don't see how the attribute of maturity I mentioned is contrarian to what you added. To be responsible for what you say & do is inseparable from the reason behind it. True altruism is done out of one's desire to be good & help others live peaceful, fulfilling lives. That also means refraining from certain actions to avoid hindering this goal. If the only reason you don't rape, kill, steal, & commit crimes is because you believe the human soul can burn at all(let alone for all eternity), then you're not actually moral. Children are naturally more sociopathic than healthy adults. To mature is to grow morally since wise people are morally upright. Intelligence can be as evil as piss, but wisdom requires a tranquil & vigilant morality. Comfort is solely dependent upon one's perception of the universe. Since we are of the same species, we've been able to come to general concesus on several things that give us comfort & the things that cause our fears in the first place. I wasn't being broad in my statement. I was defining an attribute of a fully matured consciouness. We are multifaceted, highly diversified creatures. This doesn't change the fact that eventually we must come to terms with reality & attempt to change either the flaws of the reality itself or if that's not possible, we need to change our perspective on that with which reality has presented us. You can have a half empty carton of milk, or be thankful that the oxygen isn't highly toxic. This of course, implies that we desire to be our most coherent selves so that we can minimize the limitations of how fulfilled(& by extension happy, peaceful, content, confident etc.) we can feel. I doubt most religious people perform altruistic acts solely because they believe they will get rewarded in an afterlife or just because religion tells them to. Morality is part of every human being. Most religious people don't think to themselves "I don't want to do what is right, but I have to because God tells me so." They do what is right because it is right---not because they fear of punishment. I think it's foolish to say that religious people use religion as a moral crutch, as if to say without religion they would horrible people with no sense of morality. Religion is more of a morality guideline; just like how our parent's discipline is a moral guideline. And about your previous point about how people only cling on to religion because they fear death, I'm not going to lie and say that there aren't cases that exist where that may be true, but I don't think that is true in all cases. You say religion is just a coping mechanism for those who fear the unknown of death. If that's the case, why are there people who are willing to die in the name of religion? If they are afraid of death like everyone else, as you claim, then why do they put themselves in positions of great religious persecution and risk death to spread their message?
|
|
|
Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 8, 2013 18:42:20 GMT -5
Here's the problem. Your idea of practicing religion in one's home and no where else is completely different than everyone else's. To you, this means I don't talk about my religion to anyone else. Ever. I can't wear a cross or a star of David or a Yin/Yang or whatever. I can't vote based on my religious beliefs. I can't campaign for politicians based on my religious beliefs. I can't decide what businesses to patronize based on my religion. I can't put religious bumper stickers on my car. I can't tell people how great my religion is and why they should practice it too. That's where the problem is. You keep sidestepping all my points. This is a first for you. I'm practically begging you to prove me wrong about the contradictions and any of the other valid points I've made. I just want to see if you can dispute anything I've said, I'll keep an open mind. I'm giving you a chance to prove me wrong, you take any other opportunity to prove others wrong, why are you throwing in the towel for this one? Because you're not interested in being proven wrong. If you were, you'd do a quick search of any Christian apologetics site. You are trolling and I'm not going to take the bait. You've spent the entire thread talking about "sky daddy's" and "fairy tales" and responding with hatred and vitriol to everyone. Suddenly you want to be proven wrong? I doubt that. I'm not taking the bait. Get over it. Plain and simple.
|
|
|
Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Dec 8, 2013 19:18:34 GMT -5
We are practically infantile in evolutionary terms, but I don't see how the attribute of maturity I mentioned is contrarian to what you added. To be responsible for what you say & do is inseparable from the reason behind it. True altruism is done out of one's desire to be good & help others live peaceful, fulfilling lives. That also means refraining from certain actions to avoid hindering this goal. If the only reason you don't rape, kill, steal, & commit crimes is because you believe the human soul can burn at all(let alone for all eternity), then you're not actually moral. Children are naturally more sociopathic than healthy adults. To mature is to grow morally since wise people are morally upright. Intelligence can be as evil as piss, but wisdom requires a tranquil & vigilant morality. Comfort is solely dependent upon one's perception of the universe. Since we are of the same species, we've been able to come to general concesus on several things that give us comfort & the things that cause our fears in the first place. I wasn't being broad in my statement. I was defining an attribute of a fully matured consciouness. We are multifaceted, highly diversified creatures. This doesn't change the fact that eventually we must come to terms with reality & attempt to change either the flaws of the reality itself or if that's not possible, we need to change our perspective on that with which reality has presented us. You can have a half empty carton of milk, or be thankful that the oxygen isn't highly toxic. This of course, implies that we desire to be our most coherent selves so that we can minimize the limitations of how fulfilled(& by extension happy, peaceful, content, confident etc.) we can feel. I doubt most religious people perform altruistic acts solely because they believe they will get rewarded in an afterlife or just because religion tells them to. Morality is part of every human being. Most religious people don't think to themselves "I don't want to do what is right, but I have to because God tells me so." They do what is right because it is right---not because they fear of punishment. I think it's foolish to say that religious people use religion as a moral crutch, as if to say without religion they would horrible people with no sense of morality. Religion is more of a morality guideline; just like how our parent's discipline is a moral guideline. And about your previous point about how people only cling on to religion because they fear death, I'm not going to lie and say that there aren't cases that exist where that may be true, but I don't think that is true in all cases. You say religion is just a coping mechanism for those who fear the unknown of death. If that's the case, why are there people who are willing to die in the name of religion? If they are afraid of death like everyone else, as you claim, then why do they put themselves in positions of great religious persecution and risk death to spread their message? I never stated that every religious person holds onto it for the exact same reason, nor did I state that they only do good things because of their religion. I said that if you did, your morality is invalid. I also said the only justifiable use of a religious practice is as said coping device. The fact that people need superstition to act as an ethical guideline changes the lack of validity in their morality how? I'm discussing theistic religions primarily when I discuss these issues. As to the act of martyrdom & sacrifice, those people normally participate in such acts in the belief that they are doing the will of their God, & will be rewarded if they do or punished if they refuse the command. Why wouldn't you put your life on the line if you believe that nirvana awaits you if you succeed, & the fear of eternal suffering is always lurking in the shadows? As far as your description entails, I can only deduce that you're referring extremists. If so, then we're discussing people who claim to only need faith & only use distorted logic to justify their beliefs. There is no reason to believe or expect their attempts to cope with death would ever be even remotely sensible. I honestly don't see what you're trying to imply besides pedantic, scrutinizing of generally, understood concepts. Most religions believe that life is black & white. I'm the antithesis to this way of thinking, because I know that life is ever changing, & continuously adapting in every way be it social, geological, astronomical etc.
|
|
|
Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Dec 8, 2013 19:23:01 GMT -5
You keep sidestepping all my points. This is a first for you. I'm practically begging you to prove me wrong about the contradictions and any of the other valid points I've made. I just want to see if you can dispute anything I've said, I'll keep an open mind. I'm giving you a chance to prove me wrong, you take any other opportunity to prove others wrong, why are you throwing in the towel for this one? Because you're not interested in being proven wrong. If you were, you'd do a quick search of any Christian apologetics site. You are trolling and I'm not going to take the bait. You've spent the entire thread talking about "sky daddy's" and "fairy tales" and responding with hatred and vitriol to everyone. Suddenly you want to be proven wrong? I doubt that. I'm not taking the bait. Get over it. Plain and simple. In the book of Matthew, Jesus states to amputate your eyes if you lust for a woman in your mind. Jesus is supposed to be the antithesis of the God of the old testament with his(Jesus') message of peace, love, & understanding. Is this true or not? Furthermore, you never opposed my statement of the nonexistence of any documents which verify the context, in which any of the books that compose the holy scriptures. He's not baiting you. He's changing his tune for the better. Atheists thrive on learning from mistakes. That's the other empirical side of the scientific method. Trial & error. Learning from your mistakes & adapting your methods accordingly. Not claiming that one book contains all the answers & choosing to never waver.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Ragnarok on Dec 8, 2013 20:10:33 GMT -5
You keep sidestepping all my points. This is a first for you. I'm practically begging you to prove me wrong about the contradictions and any of the other valid points I've made. I just want to see if you can dispute anything I've said, I'll keep an open mind. I'm giving you a chance to prove me wrong, you take any other opportunity to prove others wrong, why are you throwing in the towel for this one? Because you're not interested in being proven wrong. If you were, you'd do a quick search of any Christian apologetics site. You are trolling and I'm not going to take the bait. You've spent the entire thread talking about "sky daddy's" and "fairy tales" and responding with hatred and vitriol to everyone. Suddenly you want to be proven wrong? I doubt that. I'm not taking the bait. Get over it. Plain and simple. After some consideration and getting my history with religion off my chest, I realized that I agree with you and that I am being very close minded. I'm letting my bad experiences with religion cloud my judgement and am going about this the wrong way. I would like to have a serious discussion about this. I genuinely want to hear the opinions of those that are religious and try to understand if what they say is true or not. I really want to know if I made the right decision so I'd like to ask questions and have a discussion about faith. Who knows? I might even convert back if I'm convinced.
|
|
Deleted
Joined on: Sept 28, 2024 22:30:06 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2013 20:43:51 GMT -5
Because you're not interested in being proven wrong. If you were, you'd do a quick search of any Christian apologetics site. You are trolling and I'm not going to take the bait. You've spent the entire thread talking about "sky daddy's" and "fairy tales" and responding with hatred and vitriol to everyone. Suddenly you want to be proven wrong? I doubt that. I'm not taking the bait. Get over it. Plain and simple. After some consideration and getting my history with religion off my chest, I realized that I agree with you and that I am being very close minded. I'm letting my bad experiences with religion cloud my judgement and am going about this the wrong way. I would like to have a serious discussion about this. I genuinely want to hear the opinions of those that are religious and try to understand if what they say is true or not. I really want to know if I made the right decision so I'd like to ask questions and have a discussion about faith. Who knows? I might even convert back if I'm convinced. **I'd like to jump in and mention something. I've been in churches my entire life…countless hours per week & studied religion in college. I'm not religious but my family is, very much so. My mom cries over the fact that I don't get it, but I discuss things with my parents from time to time. While my mother's answer is always, "faith," my dad is very articulate & understands exactly why he believes what he does. He is a scientist & believes that this theory holds true….when left to their own devices, science leans more toward chaos than order & organization. That basically means that scientifically, he doesn't believe anything would have fallen perfectly in place as they are for the human body & earth (especially the eye, as he has mentioned). He just thinks it's far too detailed, organized, & complicated for it to be by random occurrence. He has also talked to me about the age that the earth is predicted to be. In school (he has a doctorate & masters), he studied carbon dating & a 10 year old tree tested as hundreds & hundreds of years old. So, he doesn't agree with any of the studies behind the age that dinosaurs are, or the earth for that matter. He thinks that dinosaurs were around at the same time as man, but not in the Bible because they just weren't in the desert of Jerusalem & surrounding areas.
This doesn't change my mind on what I believe, but he at least looks at it from a scientific standpoint of what makes the most logical sense as an incredibly intelligent individual, which I have to respect. As far as organized religion goes, I think the Bible is simply man's words - choosing to create order for mankind. King James Version is what it says, a translation created to lean toward King James's beliefs (IMO). Religion was very much ruled by empires over time. I read what they believe God to be & he is undeniably vengeful, jealous, & without empathy. Even if I "believed," I wouldn't want anything to do with a being that would willingly allow people to be tortured for eternity. I don't see how someone could enjoy heaven, when knowing trillions of souls were in pain forever. Just my opinion on the matter. Although I don't personally enjoy organized religion (& think it's extremely hypocritical), I would never want anyone (religious or not) to be forced to only live their lives within their own homes. They should be able to (without hurting others) do as they please in public. I have no problem with heartfelt attempts to let others know about what they believe, as long as they are respectful & don't push. However, they shouldn't be offended if someone of another religion attempts the same thing. Many people (from personal experience) will not understand why someone doesn't believe what they do, complaining about it, yet be the first one to laugh at someone that is going door to door to spread their beliefs. I get that religion can make people uncomfortable & they want to be left alone. I am not someone that wants to be bothered with it…but I respect their right to try to do so. I think the school issue is tricky because children could be vulnerable to teachers pushing their beliefs, accepting it as truth instead of an opinion. They could also feel pressure to fit in with others, or being left out based on differences. I don't mind anything that is open to all or none, as long as their isn't discrimination or pressure. **Also, it's ok to know that there is no right or wrong. People believe what they want & can be open to accepting a differing view that they don't agree with. I accept anybody's beliefs, as long as they don't hate on another's.
|
|
|
Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Dec 9, 2013 0:25:09 GMT -5
After some consideration and getting my history with religion off my chest, I realized that I agree with you and that I am being very close minded. I'm letting my bad experiences with religion cloud my judgement and am going about this the wrong way. I would like to have a serious discussion about this. I genuinely want to hear the opinions of those that are religious and try to understand if what they say is true or not. I really want to know if I made the right decision so I'd like to ask questions and have a discussion about faith. Who knows? I might even convert back if I'm convinced. **I'd like to jump in and mention something. I've been in churches my entire life…countless hours per week & studied religion in college. I'm not religious but my family is, very much so. My mom cries over the fact that I don't get it, but I discuss things with my parents from time to time. While my mother's answer is always, "faith," my dad is very articulate & understands exactly why he believes what he does. He is a scientist & believes that this theory holds true….when left to their own devices, science leans more toward chaos than order & organization. That basically means that scientifically, he doesn't believe anything would have fallen perfectly in place as they are for the human body & earth (especially the eye, as he has mentioned). He just thinks it's far too detailed, organized, & complicated for it to be by random occurrence. He has also talked to me about the age that the earth is predicted to be. In school (he has a doctorate & masters), he studied carbon dating & a 10 year old tree tested as hundreds & hundreds of years old. So, he doesn't agree with any of the studies behind the age that dinosaurs are, or the earth for that matter. He thinks that dinosaurs were around at the same time as man, but not in the Bible because they just weren't in the desert of Jerusalem & surrounding areas.
This doesn't change my mind on what I believe, but he at least looks at it from a scientific standpoint of what makes the most logical sense as an incredibly intelligent individual, which I have to respect. As far as organized religion goes, I think the Bible is simply man's words - choosing to create order for mankind. King James Version is what it says, a translation created to lean toward King James's beliefs (IMO). Religion was very much ruled by empires over time. I read what they believe God to be & he is undeniably vengeful, jealous, & without empathy. Even if I "believed," I wouldn't want anything to do with a being that would willingly allow people to be tortured for eternity. I don't see how someone could enjoy heaven, when knowing trillions of souls were in pain forever. Just my opinion on the matter. Although I don't personally enjoy organized religion (& think it's extremely hypocritical), I would never want anyone (religious or not) to be forced to only live their lives within their own homes. They should be able to (without hurting others) do as they please in public. I have no problem with heartfelt attempts to let others know about what they believe, as long as they are respectful & don't push. However, they shouldn't be offended if someone of another religion attempts the same thing. Many people (from personal experience) will not understand why someone doesn't believe what they do, complaining about it, yet be the first one to laugh at someone that is going door to door to spread their beliefs. I get that religion can make people uncomfortable & they want to be left alone. I am not someone that wants to be bothered with it…but I respect their right to try to do so. I think the school issue is tricky because children could be vulnerable to teachers pushing their beliefs, accepting it as truth instead of an opinion. They could also feel pressure to fit in with others, or being left out based on differences. I don't mind anything that is open to all or none, as long as their isn't discrimination or pressure. **Also, it's ok to know that there is no right or wrong. People believe what they want & can be open to accepting a differing view that they don't agree with. I accept anybody's beliefs, as long as they don't hate on another's. From one believer's son to another, I admire your stance quite a significant amount. It's true that the carbon dating process is flawed, but that one example doesn't summarize all potential issues with the process. Other than that, I'm not articulate enough to tactfully address your father's stance. A beneficial & valid contribution otherwise!
|
|
StingerSplash
Main Eventer
Give em' the Scorpion Death Drop.
Joined on: Jun 6, 2009 11:30:40 GMT -5
Posts: 3,976
|
Post by StingerSplash on Dec 9, 2013 11:29:00 GMT -5
Because you're not interested in being proven wrong. If you were, you'd do a quick search of any Christian apologetics site. You are trolling and I'm not going to take the bait. You've spent the entire thread talking about "sky daddy's" and "fairy tales" and responding with hatred and vitriol to everyone. Suddenly you want to be proven wrong? I doubt that. I'm not taking the bait. Get over it. Plain and simple. After some consideration and getting my history with religion off my chest, I realized that I agree with you and that I am being very close minded. I'm letting my bad experiences with religion cloud my judgement and am going about this the wrong way. I would like to have a serious discussion about this. I genuinely want to hear the opinions of those that are religious and try to understand if what they say is true or not. I really want to know if I made the right decision so I'd like to ask questions and have a discussion about faith. Who knows? I might even convert back if I'm convinced. If you wanna talk, just shoot me a PM, dude. I'd love to chat with you privately and outside of a public thread.
|
|