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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 4, 2014 21:21:05 GMT -5
I have dozens of oddball questions that I can't even begin to describe in a search engine, so I've created this thread to be filled with my questions as I search for answers.
Why were the ropes in various WWE developmental promotions(Ohio Valley, Deep South etc.) almost always yellow? I once developed a theory that it was done to assist the greener students visually distinguish the ropes from their surroundings, but I have a strong feeling I'm reading too deeply into a meaningless coincidence.
I am often buffaloed & confused by wrestlers who seem to ignore the rope being well within reach while they are on the receiving end of submission holds.
Does anyone have any particular explanation as to why this happens? Besides their attempts to sell holds & draw sympathy.
Why has the American wrestling scene never advocated their wrestlers at least knowing how to improvise in the ring? I've seen literally 1,372(if I've seen one) instances during matches where a "pop seeking spot" was done out of context when there several other more practical & more compelling tactics that could've been implemented in place of said spot.
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Post by mikey1974 on Jan 4, 2014 21:53:18 GMT -5
1) i've never really thought about it,but you could be right about that,or at least on the right track! yellow ropes were,and are,generally not used very often.
2) think you answered your own question! basically,yes,to continue to sell submission holds to gain sympathy from the crowds and viewers. similar to the "must never kick out at one" unofficial rule,to build the suspense by getting to a 2 count or a little more to make the audience think a pin is possible.
3) I think this is mainly because of the general shift to wrestling being "entertainment",and having pretty much everything from promo's to matches scripted out in detail ahead of time. in the old days,the best wrestlers would call matches in the ring,giving them that spontaneous feel,and leading to a lot of improvising in the ring. nowadays,and really for awhile,the whole match is scripted by agents in the back,and wrestlers are expected to follow the script. no thought or care or training is given to today's wrestlers to come up with things on the fly,if something goes wrong,or the scripted match sucks.hell, Cena and Punk got fined last year for an improvised spot where they did a piledriver in the match! doesn't matter that the crowd popped HUGE for the move,and it was a truly exciting moment! it was a move WWE decided to "ban",and therefore wrestlers aren't allowed to do it. Triple h and Undertaker both got fined for their WM 27 match,cause they used chairs liberally.didn't matter that this improvised act popped the crowd! so improvisation or free thinking to make a match better is NOT approved or encouraged by WWE. you have a script,you're expected to follow it,the end.
this actually leads to a second,long-winded part of my reply,LOL! there's no real interest in ring psychology anymore either. building a match from start to finish is mostly a thin of the past. matches today are mainly laid out as rest holds,spot fests,and finishing moves. cause,again,it's less of a sport and more of a product than it ever was in the past. it's more about buyrates,merchandising,and social media tie-in's than about the actual product being delivered.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 4, 2014 23:18:32 GMT -5
Another one-off question: Do you ever look at a wrestler, find out who is credited as their primary mentor & find yourself shocked & disillusioned with your discovery?
I ask this with a particular reference in mind.
Haku & Rick Stiener were both trained by Harley Race.
Now I understand the story behind Haku's affiliation & even see part of it in his style, but Steiner just shocked me. This means two of the most overlooked tough men in wrestling history each have a training lineage beginning with Stanislaus & Wladek Zybysko. That's crazier than Damien Sandow having his lineage traced back to someone who wrestled Bill Muldoon!
Superstar Billy Graham & Stu Hart is arguably the most surprising. Sadly Graham retained little to nothing of what he learned, & Hart didn't show him much to begin with other than demonstrating legitimate holds... on Graham.
My favorite is the story of the duo that technically makes Verne Gagne the most successful trainer in the history of in-ring Vaudeville. He trained Hulk Hogan AND Ric Flair during their earliest years.
If coaches earned royalty checks off the wrestlers they taught, Gagne could have supported the AWA to this very hour & buy himself a platinum tombstone.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 23:37:53 GMT -5
Another one-off question: Do you ever look at a wrestler, find out who is credited as their primary mentor & find yourself shocked & disillusioned with your discovery? I ask this with a particular reference in mind. Haku & Rick Stiener were both trained by Harley Race. Now I understand the story behind Haku's affiliation & even see part of it in his style, but Steiner just shocked me. This means two of the most overlooked tough men in wrestling history each have a training lineage beginning with Stanislaus & Wladek Zybysko. That's crazier than Damien Sandow having his lineage traced back to someone who wrestled Bill Muldoon! Superstar Billy Graham & Stu Hart is arguably the most surprising. Sadly Graham retained little to nothing of what he learned, & Hart didn't show him much to begin with other than demonstrating legitimate holds... on Graham. My favorite is the story of the duo that technically makes Verne Gagne the most successful trainer in the history of in-ring Vaudeville. He trained Hulk Hogan AND Ric Flair during their earliest years. If coaches earned royalty checks off the wrestlers they taught, Gagne could have supported the AWA to this very hour & buy himself a platinum tombstone. Gagne also had a hand in training the Iron Sheik and Sgt Slaughter. |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 5, 2014 0:32:27 GMT -5
Another one-off question: Do you ever look at a wrestler, find out who is credited as their primary mentor & find yourself shocked & disillusioned with your discovery? I ask this with a particular reference in mind. Haku & Rick Stiener were both trained by Harley Race. Now I understand the story behind Haku's affiliation & even see part of it in his style, but Steiner just shocked me. This means two of the most overlooked tough men in wrestling history each have a training lineage beginning with Stanislaus & Wladek Zybysko. That's crazier than Damien Sandow having his lineage traced back to someone who wrestled Bill Muldoon! Superstar Billy Graham & Stu Hart is arguably the most surprising. Sadly Graham retained little to nothing of what he learned, & Hart didn't show him much to begin with other than demonstrating legitimate holds... on Graham. My favorite is the story of the duo that technically makes Verne Gagne the most successful trainer in the history of in-ring Vaudeville. He trained Hulk Hogan AND Ric Flair during their earliest years. If coaches earned royalty checks off the wrestlers they taught, Gagne could have supported the AWA to this very hour & buy himself a platinum tombstone. Gagne also had a hand in training the Iron Sheik and Sgt Slaughter. I swear. These are the moments where I just want to scream, because people say I'm not as knowledgable as I think I am, but I can't help that what I know. He was in the same camp as Flair, Greg Gagne, Jim Brunzell, & Kem Patera. Please tell me you also died laughing when saw photos of Slaughter during his early days as a Billy Graham knockoff. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 0:42:31 GMT -5
Gagne also had a hand in training the Iron Sheik and Sgt Slaughter. I swear. These are the moments where I just want to scream, because people say I'm not as knowledgable as I think I am, but I can't help that what I know. He was in the same camp as Flair, Greg Gagne, Jim Brunzell, & Kem Patera. Please tell me you also died laughing when saw photos of Slaughter during his early days as a Billy Graham knockoff.  First time I've seen this actually. |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 5, 2014 1:41:18 GMT -5
I swear. These are the moments where I just want to scream, because people say I'm not as knowledgable as I think I am, but I can't help that what I know. He was in the same camp as Flair, Greg Gagne, Jim Brunzell, & Kem Patera. Please tell me you also died laughing when saw photos of Slaughter during his early days as a Billy Graham knockoff. First time I've seen this actually. It's even better in COLOR!!! Hahahahaha! He does close stance push ups & doesn't mush up his potatoes! He hits the middle east like a Texas tornado! He's Supersarge Slaughty Graham live & in livin camo BAY BAAAY! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 5:34:11 GMT -5
Good GRIEF!!!
The Sarge wouldn't have been rolling in the cash with the GI Joe franchise if he looked like that LOL.I wouldn't be able to answers any of your questions better than Mikey has TS so I wont try.
in response to the ropes/submission though that can be glaringly obvious.I have often witnessed wrestlers lying on their arm and reaching for the rope with their far hand!!whereas its obvious that if said wrestler flattened himelf out?he would reach the ropes no sweat....LOL.
and improvising is gone and so discouraged now its not even funny.
take last WM for instance....
When Ryback hoisted Mark Henry for the shellshock and the crowd went INSANE?Vince should've called an audible thru the ref(there was time),let him execute the move and win the match.
that right there was a career making moment.but since Ryback had been designated as food for Cena?Vince couldn't deviate even a little bit
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Post by mikey1974 on Jan 5, 2014 6:23:45 GMT -5
Good GRIEF!!! The Sarge wouldn't have been rolling in the cash with the GI Joe franchise if he looked like that LOL.I wouldn't be able to answers any of your questions better than Mikey has TS so I wont try. in response to the ropes/submission though that can be glaringly obvious.I have often witnessed wrestlers lying on their arm and reaching for the rope with their far hand!!whereas its obvious that if said wrestler flattened himelf out?he would reach the ropes no sweat....LOL. and improvising is gone and so discouraged now its not even funny. take last WM for instance.... When Ryback hoisted Mark Henry for the shellshock and the crowd went INSANE?Vince should've called an audible thru the ref(there was time),let him execute the move and win the match. that right there was a career making moment.but since Ryback had been designated as food for Cena?Vince couldn't deviate even a little bit exactly. they will not change the script for anything! and,not to correct you Turnbuckle Scholar,but Gagne did not train Hogan. it was Hiro Matsuda who trained Hogan down near Tampa,Florida for a year from mid 1976-mid 1977. Verne wouldn't get anywhere near Hogan until he started with the AWA in 1981,shortly before Rocky III came out. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 10:58:29 GMT -5
Never seen that pic of Slaughter before.
Horrible.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 5, 2014 12:54:24 GMT -5
Good GRIEF!!! The Sarge wouldn't have been rolling in the cash with the GI Joe franchise if he looked like that LOL.I wouldn't be able to answers any of your questions better than Mikey has TS so I wont try. in response to the ropes/submission though that can be glaringly obvious.I have often witnessed wrestlers lying on their arm and reaching for the rope with their far hand!!whereas its obvious that if said wrestler flattened himelf out?he would reach the ropes no sweat....LOL. and improvising is gone and so discouraged now its not even funny. take last WM for instance.... When Ryback hoisted Mark Henry for the shellshock and the crowd went INSANE?Vince should've called an audible thru the ref(there was time),let him execute the move and win the match. that right there was a career making moment.but since Ryback had been designated as food for Cena?Vince couldn't deviate even a little bit exactly. they will not change the script for anything! and,not to correct you Turnbuckle Scholar,but Gagne did not train Hogan. it was Hiro Matsuda who trained Hogan down near Tampa,Florida for a year from mid 1976-mid 1977. Verne wouldn't get anywhere near Hogan until he started with the AWA in 1981,shortly before Rocky III came out. I knew someone was going to mention that. Matsuda broke his leg & the rest is history. Hogan didn't genuinely break out & learn the style that took him to the top of McMahon promotions until he worked with Verne. The Briscoes convinced him to work with the man who helped Jack mentor Bob Orton Jr. where Hogan would first meet & learn under Pat Patterson. Then he did the territorial loop, get called up to WWWF, meet Vince Sr, be given the Hogan name in place of "Terry Boulder" & after a heel run against Andre with Blassie in his corner, we find ourselves at Gagne's barn threshold. |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 7, 2014 2:40:05 GMT -5
Does anyone have potential estimate of how many wrestling matches have been performed in history?
I would estimate a little under 5 million total counting all promotions of all levels including carnivals from 1915 to present day.
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Post by mikey1974 on Jan 7, 2014 18:14:59 GMT -5
Holy Christ! I can't even begin to imagine a number! you gotta figure,there were SO many promotions in the US alone that I can think of off the top of my head:
Capitol Wrestling / WWWF / WWF / WWE
Mid - Atlantic Crockett Promotion / WCW
AWA
Tri-State / ECW
USWA
Smokey Mountain Wrestling
Ring of Honor
Mid-South
WCCW
Global Wrestling Federation
UWF
XWF
Pacific Northwest Wrestling
St Louis
Florida Championship Wrestling
Southwest Championship Wrestling
WWA
Georgia Championship Wrestling
CZW
not to mention countless promotions in Canada like Stampede Wrestling, Mexico like AAA, Europe,and,of course,Japan. and a lot of these had cards 300 or more days a year,some promotions doing it for DECADES! and that's just counting from roughly the 1950's or so til today.still a ton of matches from the late 1800's til the mid 20th Century.
LOL! 5 million may be too LOW of an estimate!
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 8, 2014 2:38:34 GMT -5
Holy Christ! I can't even begin to imagine a number! you gotta figure,there were SO many promotions in the US alone that I can think of off the top of my head: Capitol Wrestling / WWWF / WWF / WWE Mid - Atlantic Crockett Promotion / WCW AWA Tri-State / ECW USWA Smokey Mountain Wrestling Ring of Honor Mid-South WCCW Global Wrestling Federation UWF XWF Pacific Northwest Wrestling St Louis Florida Championship Wrestling Southwest Championship Wrestling WWA Georgia Championship Wrestling CZW not to mention countless promotions in Canada like Stampede Wrestling, Mexico like AAA, Europe,and,of course,Japan. and a lot of these had cards 300 or more days a year,some promotions doing it for DECADES! and that's just counting from roughly the 1950's or so til today.still a ton of matches from the late 1800's til the mid 20th Century. LOL! 5 million may be too LOW of an estimate! As the brother I wish I always had, I love you so much. I totally neglected to account for the international promotions! You keep me on my toes & I thank you for it! |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 8, 2014 2:59:28 GMT -5
Why do most fans prefer the chain-link fencing for the walls of the cage during Steel-Cage matches for creating a feel of realistic danger?
After a show I worked last year, before the cage was disassembled, I reenacted Race vs Flair from Starrcade 83' with one of my training partners who was left off the card. I played Harley & tossed myself into the walls with malicious ferocity. I took ten bumps of such a variety before I struggled to stand & retired to the locker room(which was just a random spare room of that particular Armory).
Two months later, I had a chance to go hunting at a scrapyard for potential sculpture parts, exercise tools/equipment, & generally interesting oddities with my father. Low & behold we stumble upon a section of metal bars almost identical to the WWF "Big blue" cage walls, but with slightly thinner, green bars composing a rough 4x8 section. I quickly propped it against a windowless Volkswagen, walked 7 feet away & to my old man to Irish whip me into it. He reluctantly obliged. I didn't breathe right for the rest of the week from the impact.
I have a feeling the "Big Blue" walls' color was slightly misleading in relation to it's hardness.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 3:56:23 GMT -5
Maybe it's just me but the blue bar cages look solid as  |
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Post by mikey1974 on Jan 8, 2014 7:26:47 GMT -5
I think most people associate the big blue (or yellow) cages less with the brutality of a cage match,but more with spots,and guys hanging from it and stuff or doing moves off the top. the chain-link cage I think is more associated with blood and violence in a cage match. you never see guys getting their foreheads raked across the steel bars to get juice,you know?
I mean,the blue cage was specifically created so guys could climb easier. the chain-link was created mainly to keep guys in and others out,as it can be difficult to climb. both definitely suck,though,LOL! I mean,the blue steel is solid as hell,and like you said is gonna hurt. the chain-link gives way more,but has sharp protruding parts on it for bloody mayhem.
LOL! getting long-winded now,but it may simply come down to this - the chain-link was associated with pro wrestling, the blue cage was associated with sports-entertainment. ironic,though,how WWE still uses the chain-link cages from their return in the Attitude Era today,considering this is easily one of the most sanitized era's in the company's history.
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Captain McKay
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Post by Captain McKay on Jan 8, 2014 11:19:18 GMT -5
I think most people associate the big blue (or yellow) cages less with the brutality of a cage match,but more with spots,and guys hanging from it and stuff or doing moves off the top. the chain-link cage I think is more associated with blood and violence in a cage match. you never see guys getting their foreheads raked across the steel bars to get juice,you know? I mean,the blue cage was specifically created so guys could climb easier. the chain-link was created mainly to keep guys in and others out,as it can be difficult to climb. both definitely suck,though,LOL! I mean,the blue steel is solid as hell,and like you said is gonna hurt. the chain-link gives way more,but has sharp protruding parts on it for bloody mayhem. LOL! getting long-winded now,but it may simply come down to this - the chain-link was associated with pro wrestling, the blue cage was associated with sports-entertainment. ironic,though,how WWE still uses the chain-link cages from their return in the Attitude Era today,considering this is easily one of the most sanitized era's in the company's history.Which always made me wonder why they even bothered with Hell in a Cell or Elimination Chamber matches anymore. Let alone ENTIRE PPVs. Those matches were the be-all, end-all grudge matches that were so brutal, to even get through one was considered incredible. And now, it's like "pssssh, whatever...there's no blood anymore, and no real reason to have this match since it isn't special, because EVERYONE is gonna have one tonight." |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 11:31:58 GMT -5
HIAC and The EC are now officially wastes of time.
HIAC was designed as a vehicle to be the ultimate feud ender.
UT vs HBK, Mankind, Lesnar & Batista
HHH vs Cactus, Batista
The 6 Man HIAC
were awesome and dramatic affairs. The introduction of "color" in these matches was essential not only because of the structure but because the series of events that led them there. like with UT vs HBK....it was very evident that UT wanted to do HBK some damage and my God the state of HBK was awesome.
then you have the tame bloodless affairs of today.....take UT vs Edge.great match.....but because it was in HIAC & PG the same things that UT had done to split people open weren't happening here. it was disorientating.
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Road Warriors
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Post by Road Warriors on Jan 8, 2014 12:16:04 GMT -5
You can't have a real cage match anymore because no one wants to get color anymore with the risks. It really is a lost art form.
Kinda sad really when you think about it.
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