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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 9, 2014 18:46:33 GMT -5
My larger point is that winning World Cups has a huge slice of luck on two levels. The first level is that, as a cup competition, teams can get lucky with the draw. Argentina had the easiest group, probably the third or fourth-easiest last 16 team, the 2nd easiest last 8 team and the easiest team in the last 4 (the bookies unanimously had Holland as 4th favourites before the semis). By comparison Germany had probably the toughest group with 3 teams around the level of Argentina's last 8 opponents (Belgium), an admittedly relatively easy last 16 game against the (slightly underrated but still not great) Algerians, a tough last 8 match against a France team many fancied and a semi-final against Brazil who were on home soil (and lets not forget before kick off the two teams were roughly 50-50 in odds to go through). In their run Germany have played some fantastic football whilst obliterating both Portugal and Brazil, scoring the most goals in the tournament in the process. By comparison Argentina have laboured through their run failing to inspire at any point through either class or excitement, with every single player playing below the standard we usually come to expect of them. Therefore, should Argentina lift the trophy they will be one of the worst teams ever to do so. The second level relates more to the idea that great players should not be judged on the World Cup. This is because what country you are born in is 100% random, whereas great players will always end up at great clubs competing for honours if they are good enough. Look at the great players never to step foot on the World Cup stage: Di Stefano, Best, Giggs, Bale etc... all could have easily won a World Cup if they played for a major team. Even now, looking at Ronaldo vs. Messi in 2014, Ronaldo has a much much weaker team around him. Argentina by comparison have several world class players (they have failed to perform but that doesn't mean they weren't world class to begin with) and so Messi's chances of winning the trophy are boosted solely through luck. By comparison, their battles at club level are on a far more even footing due to both of their teams being at the pinnacle of footballing excellence. In short, Argentina have been mediocre at best and Messi's legacy should not be significantly shifted one way or the other by what happens on Sunday. You keep saying how if Argentina win the World Cup they'll be one of the worst teams to do so, yet when it comes down to Messi he's suddenly in a great team. On paper they have some good Players, but the Team has been disconnected for the most of this Tournament. Di Maria suspended, Aguero injured, a very poor back line. You can't deny that Messi single handedly got them through the groups, then they had to tighten up and play a sensible game for the knockouts. Messi could of played for Spain, but he didn't. The World Cup is a long Tournament, you get some luck on the way, you have a quiet Game, the standard gets higher and the rest time gets shorter. World Cups aren't what they used to be since the evolution of the Champions League, but you need something to carry a Team all the way through. I also wouldn't say Real Madrid were weaker than Barca this year, infact they were probably the freshest, best Side in Europe this Year under Ancelotti, while Barca were burnt out, tired and figured out, either way Ronaldo had a better Season. If Messi can perform in the Final and take Argentina to a World Cup, solely getting them through the Groups, nicking it against Finalists from 2010 and a German Side made up of 7 Bayern Players, it is a great achievement. I'm sure your desire for Ronaldo to not be outshone by Messi is praying they don't though. I think Maradona and Pele are in a different bracket to the likes of Di Stefano, Cruyff, Zidane, Puskas, Ronaldo. Messi is currently in that bracket, but if he wins a World Cup, he will be up there with Pele and Maradona. On paper they are a great team, in practice they have failed to show it at this tournament. Hence Messi has a better team around him than other players, but they are still not great when we look solely at this World Cup. And if we're referencing the Ronaldo-Messi comparison then Argentina may be average without Messi but Portugal are downright awful without Ronaldo. If we're talking about injuries lets not forget arguably Germany's best player (Reus) has missed every game, yet they've still looked great, so I don't take that as an excuse. Messi being offered the chance to play with Spain isn't important - he was always Argentinan and he knew this, and at the time anyway Spain were the perennial under-achievers of world football and therefore not an attractive concept. I didn't mean Real were weaker (I meant Portugal vs. Argentina), merely that the playing field is much closer to being even than internationally, which I don't think anyone would disagree with. It would be a great achievement but that doesn't mean it would be THE great achievement that would propel him up a level. Surely his record breaking year in 2012 or winning the treble in 2009 would be far more important as he actually hit his peak at those times? By comparison he has looked sluggish and lethargic both in this World Cup and this season in general, and nothing can change that. On paper the achievement is there, but scratch the surface deeper and it is not as impressive as Maradonna in 86 or Pele in 70. Messi hasn't come remotely close to Maradonna's greatness that year with the goals he scored or the team he was playing with, regardless of what happens next, so why should anyone pretend that this is the achievement that gets him to their level? If he ends up at that level it is because of what he has already done, or what he will do after this World Cup. Winning on Sunday should not be seen as the difference maker at all if you truly compare it to the achievements of the two top greats you listed.
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Post by Dan on Jul 9, 2014 19:07:50 GMT -5
You keep saying how if Argentina win the World Cup they'll be one of the worst teams to do so, yet when it comes down to Messi he's suddenly in a great team. On paper they have some good Players, but the Team has been disconnected for the most of this Tournament. Di Maria suspended, Aguero injured, a very poor back line. You can't deny that Messi single handedly got them through the groups, then they had to tighten up and play a sensible game for the knockouts. Messi could of played for Spain, but he didn't. The World Cup is a long Tournament, you get some luck on the way, you have a quiet Game, the standard gets higher and the rest time gets shorter. World Cups aren't what they used to be since the evolution of the Champions League, but you need something to carry a Team all the way through. I also wouldn't say Real Madrid were weaker than Barca this year, infact they were probably the freshest, best Side in Europe this Year under Ancelotti, while Barca were burnt out, tired and figured out, either way Ronaldo had a better Season. If Messi can perform in the Final and take Argentina to a World Cup, solely getting them through the Groups, nicking it against Finalists from 2010 and a German Side made up of 7 Bayern Players, it is a great achievement. I'm sure your desire for Ronaldo to not be outshone by Messi is praying they don't though. I think Maradona and Pele are in a different bracket to the likes of Di Stefano, Cruyff, Zidane, Puskas, Ronaldo. Messi is currently in that bracket, but if he wins a World Cup, he will be up there with Pele and Maradona. On paper they are a great team, in practice they have failed to show it at this tournament. Hence Messi has a better team around him than other players, but they are still not great when we look solely at this World Cup. And if we're referencing the Ronaldo-Messi comparison then Argentina may be average without Messi but Portugal are downright awful without Ronaldo. If we're talking about injuries lets not forget arguably Germany's best player (Reus) has missed every game, yet they've still looked great, so I don't take that as an excuse. Messi being offered the chance to play with Spain isn't important - he was always Argentinan and he knew this, and at the time anyway Spain were the perennial under-achievers of world football and therefore not an attractive concept. I didn't mean Real were weaker (I meant Portugal vs. Argentina), merely that the playing field is much closer to being even than internationally, which I don't think anyone would disagree with. It would be a great achievement but that doesn't mean it would be THE great achievement that would propel him up a level. Surely his record breaking year in 2012 or winning the treble in 2009 would be far more important as he actually hit his peak at those times? By comparison he has looked sluggish and lethargic both in this World Cup and this season in general, and nothing can change that. On paper the achievement is there, but scratch the surface deeper and it is not as impressive as Maradonna in 86 or Pele in 70. Messi hasn't come remotely close to Maradonna's greatness that year with the goals he scored or the team he was playing with, regardless of what happens next, so why should anyone pretend that this is the achievement that gets him to their level? If he ends up at that level it is because of what he has already done, or what he will do after this World Cup. Winning on Sunday should not be seen as the difference maker at all if you truly compare it to the achievements of the two top greats you listed. I see what you're saying. The argument is though, that Pele and Maradona's main achievements in their Careers, and what they historically are remembered by was what they done in a World Cup, because this is the Stage they done it on. And, like you stated, the personal achievement of winning a World Cup for Messi wont be greater than what he done at Club Level such as his 96 Calendar Goal Season, Treble Winning Years etc. But, this is largely down to the fact that Maradona and Pele didn't do it in the European Cups, so therefore they are distinguished by the International Stage. Vice Versa for Messi. Now, he has the chance to add it to his CV, where he can say he answered the Questions and delivered it on the International Stage, aswell as at Club level which others didn't do. He isn't the same Messi we get at Barca, where he's leading the front line and being the end product. He's had to change his Game to play deeper, more reserved so he can draw Defenders out to create more important spaces for other Players infront of him, and this time be the architect. It's both on and off the ball intelligence, showing he can be a different form of Player to what he does for Barcelona, that he has even more to his Game. Ronaldo for me, is similar to Di Stefano. A huge standout individual of his generation, who helped deliver European Cups, scored a ton of Goals and contained extreme individual abilities. He's a pure athlete, a machine, the definition of the modern day footballer. He and Messi both share similarities, in that they have stood head and shoulder above anyone else this past decade, do it on the big Stage in the big Games, and are ridiculously clinical, breaking all Goal Scoring Records. Attitude can poise a case for an argument, but for me that can be personal preference, as some people will either love or hate that. But the difference for me is Messi has the vision, the natural footballing brain of a Paul Scholes, a Xavi, a Pirlo. When he loses his pace and has to adapt his Game again when he hits his 30's, he can become the dictator of the Pitch.
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Post by Dan on Jul 9, 2014 19:21:42 GMT -5
After Sunday, I think it's finally time I let go of my obsession with France 98 and accept I've enjoyed another World Cup more.
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Post by Ben - #6 Munchie on Jul 9, 2014 19:28:12 GMT -5
Didn't want either team to win tbh, can we have USA/Costa Rica/Colombia in their place? Pretty please?
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Post by King Silva on Jul 9, 2014 19:40:05 GMT -5
I've only watch a little bit of this since it started but did hear about Brazil getting their ass BEAT by Germany!
So sad to go out like that.
Germany is going to be hard to beat so good luck to whoever has to face them..
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Post by Ben - #6 Munchie on Jul 9, 2014 19:44:30 GMT -5
I've only watch a little bit of this since it started but did hear about Brazil getting their ass BEAT by Germany! So sad to go out like that. Germany is going to be hard to beat so good luck to whoever has to face them.. Argentina
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Post by bad guy™ on Jul 9, 2014 21:40:08 GMT -5
Didn't want either team to win tbh, can we have USA/Costa Rica/Colombia in their place? Pretty please? I would be afraid for ANY of those teams winning the Cup. Everyone would get shot and die in Colombia...no need for fireworks, one shot, two shot. Costa Rica, see Colombia. US...come see any city/state when we win some kind of championship. Or here where I live, just win a game. We burn cities down. Not even kidding. Haha.
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Post by Himmy! on Jul 10, 2014 1:43:36 GMT -5
Would love to see Messi lift the World Cup. However I love the German team too! Should be an interesting final.
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Post by 0,Y on Jul 10, 2014 4:13:20 GMT -5
This was by far one of the most lame ass semi finals I've ever seen. If I had known I would have tuned in when it came to penalties. Jesus Christ, what a waste of time. Also I ing hate Argentina and that Messi troll so I hope we kick their ass on sunday.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 10, 2014 6:06:21 GMT -5
On paper they are a great team, in practice they have failed to show it at this tournament. Hence Messi has a better team around him than other players, but they are still not great when we look solely at this World Cup. And if we're referencing the Ronaldo-Messi comparison then Argentina may be average without Messi but Portugal are downright awful without Ronaldo. If we're talking about injuries lets not forget arguably Germany's best player (Reus) has missed every game, yet they've still looked great, so I don't take that as an excuse. Messi being offered the chance to play with Spain isn't important - he was always Argentinan and he knew this, and at the time anyway Spain were the perennial under-achievers of world football and therefore not an attractive concept. I didn't mean Real were weaker (I meant Portugal vs. Argentina), merely that the playing field is much closer to being even than internationally, which I don't think anyone would disagree with. It would be a great achievement but that doesn't mean it would be THE great achievement that would propel him up a level. Surely his record breaking year in 2012 or winning the treble in 2009 would be far more important as he actually hit his peak at those times? By comparison he has looked sluggish and lethargic both in this World Cup and this season in general, and nothing can change that. On paper the achievement is there, but scratch the surface deeper and it is not as impressive as Maradonna in 86 or Pele in 70. Messi hasn't come remotely close to Maradonna's greatness that year with the goals he scored or the team he was playing with, regardless of what happens next, so why should anyone pretend that this is the achievement that gets him to their level? If he ends up at that level it is because of what he has already done, or what he will do after this World Cup. Winning on Sunday should not be seen as the difference maker at all if you truly compare it to the achievements of the two top greats you listed. I see what you're saying. The argument is though, that Pele and Maradona's main achievements in their Careers, and what they historically are remembered by was what they done in a World Cup, because this is the Stage they done it on. And, like you stated, the personal achievement of winning a World Cup for Messi wont be greater than what he done at Club Level such as his 96 Calendar Goal Season, Treble Winning Years etc. But, this is largely down to the fact that Maradona and Pele didn't do it in the European Cups, so therefore they are distinguished by the International Stage. Vice Versa for Messi. Now, he has the chance to add it to his CV, where he can say he answered the Questions and delivered it on the International Stage, aswell as at Club level which others didn't do. He isn't the same Messi we get at Barca, where he's leading the front line and being the end product. He's had to change his Game to play deeper, more reserved so he can draw Defenders out to create more important spaces for other Players infront of him, and this time be the architect. It's both on and off the ball intelligence, showing he can be a different form of Player to what he does for Barcelona, that he has even more to his Game. Ronaldo for me, is similar to Di Stefano. A huge standout individual of his generation, who helped deliver European Cups, scored a ton of Goals and contained extreme individual abilities. He's a pure athlete, a machine, the definition of the modern day footballer. He and Messi both share similarities, in that they have stood head and shoulder above anyone else this past decade, do it on the big Stage in the big Games, and are ridiculously clinical, breaking all Goal Scoring Records. Attitude can poise a case for an argument, but for me that can be personal preference, as some people will either love or hate that. But the difference for me is Messi has the vision, the natural footballing brain of a Paul Scholes, a Xavi, a Pirlo. When he loses his pace and has to adapt his Game again when he hits his 30's, he can become the dictator of the Pitch. If the World Cup is used to put him on the same level as the top players then fine. What will bug me is if people say that its as good as Pele 70/Maradona 86 when it wasn't; instead Messi's best was at club level, and winning the WC was as you say more about having it on his CV than the actual individual achievement itself. I know they will so if they win I'll just try to tune it out. I think we've actually got relatively similar viewpoints on this aspect, but we're coming from different angles. In terms of Messi adapting his game I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. By the time the next World Cup comes around we should be seeing the beginning of that transition as he'll be 31.
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Post by McBlake on Jul 10, 2014 6:28:44 GMT -5
After last night, anything but a Germany win would be a damn tragedy. Argentina have been pretty gash throughout and relied far too much on Messi without him being all that great in the knockouts.
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AV1
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jun 15, 2008 9:04:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,870
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Post by AV1 on Jul 10, 2014 6:47:14 GMT -5
Was speaking to my dad about the Messi compared to Pele. He basically said in his opinion that the big deal with Pele and Maradona is you only really seen them play at the World Cup and that's where people's memories of them are. Where Messi we have the option to see him play every week so we have seen his best at club level.
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Post by McBlake on Jul 10, 2014 9:41:59 GMT -5
How annoying would it get hearing people use a world cup win as an argument in the age old best player ever debate in regards to Messi if HE pulls it off. Infact, pretty off topic, but on the subject of one player taking all the headlines... How ing cringey were Cesar and Luiz holing up a Neymar shirt on Tuesday? Made the scoreline even more satisfying.
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Post by 0,Y on Jul 10, 2014 10:38:15 GMT -5
Messi ain't ever gonna win a World Cup so basically the whole discussion above is moot
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 10, 2014 11:51:27 GMT -5
How annoying would it get hearing people use a world cup win as an argument in the age old best player ever debate in regards to Messi if HE pulls it off. Infact, pretty off topic, but on the subject of one player taking all the headlines... How ing cringey were Cesar and Luiz holing up a Neymar shirt on Tuesday? Made the scoreline even more satisfying. I don't think anyone who takes football seriously will. Lets compare Maradona 1986 to Messi 2014: Maradona scored 5 in 7 including what would probably come top in a 'greatest goals of all time' poll vs. England in the Quarters, as well as goals against (world champions) Italy in the groups and Belgium in the semis. He also got 5 assists. The team around him was very mediocre and he undoubtedly dragged them to every win. Messi has 4 in 6 against luminary teams such as Iran and Bosnia. In terms of the quality of the goals there was plenty to match Maradona such as... um... that free kick was solid? And there was that amazing goal in the knockouts against... oh wait, Messi hasn't scored in the knockout stages. Argentina have scored a grand total of 2 in the knockouts, with 1 of those coming in the 120th minute. The two aren't even remotely comparable.
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Deleted
Joined on: May 4, 2024 19:28:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 16:37:28 GMT -5
Argentina actually had a fighting shot towards the end there, if Messie had crossed rather than taking a super-man shot. Poor guy he's going to get absolutely ripped apart. Good game and i'm glad Germany finished it up to win.
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Post by JHTB® on Jul 13, 2014 16:38:20 GMT -5
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Post by el torro on Jul 13, 2014 16:38:32 GMT -5
Damn, I really wanted to see Messi lift the Cup. :/
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Post by McBlake on Jul 13, 2014 16:39:41 GMT -5
Couldn't think of a better way to end a World Cup than that Messi free kick
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Post by Markw on Jul 13, 2014 16:42:04 GMT -5
Couldn't think of a better way to end a World Cup than that Messi free kick Why don't you like Messi?
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