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Post by Hulk Who? on Dec 26, 2014 4:13:31 GMT -5
I’ve been thinking about this forever, and I think I can make some good guesses to fill in the gaps of what we know. I don’t buy the Stephanie stuff, especially not after they started all the merchandise, even a statue. You don’t commission a statue of a man who did that to your daughter, not even Vince. That aside it’s often looked at from the view of McMahon holding a grudge against Randy, but I think there’s something to say about Savage and his resentments.
1. The old timers battle royal. Didn’t know this until Lanny revealed it. For those who don’t know, according to our friend the Genius, Savage asked Vince to let his father Angelo be in an untelevised legends battle royal and Vince said no. The match was all old timers and Angelo really wanted to be in it to see his old friends, so Randy promised him he would get him in, and then couldn’t. Following this Lanny says Randy told him ‘I thought WWF was a family, but it’s not so from now on we’re just here to make money.’ Lanny claims Randy punched a hole in a wall and said he should have tried harder about the battle royal when his father died, that’s like olympic level grudge holding.
2. Firing Steamboat after THAT program and match, the most important of Savage’s career at that point. He put him over huge and it got flushed and the belt was given to HTM instead, seemed like a joke. A joke I ended up enjoying because Honky was a great performer in his own way, and the payoff to the joke was that great SS 88 moment with Warrior.
3. Vince firing Warrior after he put him over huge. Randy goes into the announce chair, Warrior is fired, Randy comes back, off steroids and picks up the Jake Roberts/Undertaker feud Warrior dropped. Then Jake is fired too. I don’t really know if he found firing Steamboat and Warrior insulting, but I think it’s a pretty good guess, after all the energy Savage put into putting them over and Vince does it again after Warrior just kicked out of 5 elbows? lol
4. Savage following the rules by getting off steroids and wearing a shirt, followed by Vince perceiving him as too old, while Warrior, Sid, and Luger kept on obviously breaking the rules. Plus, Randy looks too old but Flair and Hogan don’t? Randy had just put on one of the most amazing years in wrestling feuding with Warrior, Roberts and Flair, what was there for him to prove at that point?
5. The sudden end of the Ultimate Maniacs, once again Vince fires Warrior while working with Randy on something awesome.
6. Randy’s proposed program with HBK is rejected.
7. All the trash talk from all the wrestlers including the Billionaire Ted stuff about Liz, and Savage’s removal from WWE history, even more so than Warrior. I just watched WM17 again, and was surprised to see Warrior is featured prominently in the opening. Even Steamboat and Flair never talked warmly about their matches with him until after he died. I could see that as being heartbreaking to him.
The info new to me about the announcing position from the new dvd is that Savage himself says he wasn’t in his right mind in that period following the divorce and needed a break. But then he wanted to come back and was refused, so he left. You’d think he’d tell Vince, let me wrestle or I’m leaving, but communication probably wasn’t there. Most of the matches Savage had besides Crush at the end went no where, random stuff with Repo and Doink. instead of vs Hart, Michaels, Razor etc. then he’d go back to the chair. It's a shame we never really got to hear from him about much of anything.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 11:31:36 GMT -5
Randy Savage bet Vince McMahon $1 (Canadian) that he could nail Stephanie before Vince could nail Sensational Sherri.
Savage won the bet.
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Post by mikey1974 on Dec 26, 2014 13:40:10 GMT -5
in all honesty, Lanny's speech about Randy needing time off from wrestling after his divorce is kinda bullsh*t.
- Liz and Randy get divorced in the summer of 1992. Randy was WWF Champion at this time,defended the Belt all summer vs Ric Flair at house shows and dark match main events,wrestled Ultimate Warrior at Summerslam, dropped the Belt to Flair shortly thereafter, started a program with Razor Ramon, formed the Ultimate Maniacs, teamed with Mr. Perfect vs Razor and Flair at Survivor Series, feuded with Razor Ramon winter 92 / 93, wrestled in the Royal Rumble 1993 AND WAS SLATED TO WIN until Vince changed his mind at the last minute (which would've put Randy in the main event of Mania 9), and he DID feud with HBK in the spring/summer of 1993 for the IC Belt ( I saw them wrestle twice, once at a TV taping,once at a house show in 93), before having a pretty quiet summer of 93. then in the fall of 1993, his feud with Crush started,which would last through Survivor Series,the Rumble 93, and Wrestlemania X. only after Mania X did he seem to really scale back and not really be featured as much,until he left in fall 1994, but was featured in main events vs Bret hart for the WWF Championship over in Japan after Mania X.. I'd also like to pint out that there were also several prominent Raw matches throughout 93 and 94 vs the likes of Doink and Yokozuna among others.
so this idea that Vince wouldn't let him wrestle and only wanted him to be an announcer after his divorce until he left is really quite rubbish. he was prominently featured on multiple PPV's,, had some high-profile Raw matches, was definitely a fixture on the house show circuit, and was THISCLOSE to main-eventing his fourth WrestleMania. was Randy happy with his slot? probably not - I'm sure he felt capable of being used in top-level angles and main event matches all the way until the day he left. but this idea that he wasn't allowed to wrestle and only allowed to be a broadcaster by Vince from 92 until he left is complete nonsense.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Dec 26, 2014 17:26:28 GMT -5
I never understood why to Vince that Randy was 'too old' to be wrestling when it was the "New Generation" when the champion at the time was Bret "Hitman" Hart, who I believe was in the WWE before Randy Savage was.
Even in 1994, Randy could still go. I don't understand why Vince didn't want him wrestling. I would have loved it if Randy and Bret feuded with Diesel and HBK in 1994.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Dec 26, 2014 17:37:20 GMT -5
in all honesty, Lanny's speech about Randy needing time off from wrestling after his divorce is kinda bullsh*t. - Liz and Randy get divorced in the summer of 1992. Randy was WWF Champion at this time,defended the Belt all summer vs Ric Flair at house shows and dark match main events,wrestled Ultimate Warrior at Summerslam, dropped the Belt to Flair shortly thereafter, started a program with Razor Ramon, formed the Ultimate Maniacs, teamed with Mr. Perfect vs Razor and Flair at Survivor Series, feuded with Razor Ramon winter 92 / 93, wrestled in the Royal Rumble 1993 AND WAS SLATED TO WIN until Vince changed his mind at the last minute (which would've put Randy in the main event of Mania 9), and he DID feud with HBK in the spring/summer of 1993 for the IC Belt ( I saw them wrestle twice, once at a TV taping,once at a house show in 93), before having a pretty quiet summer of 93. then in the fall of 1993, his feud with Crush started,which would last through Survivor Series,the Rumble 93, and Wrestlemania X. only after Mania X did he seem to really scale back and not really be featured as much,until he left in fall 1994, but was featured in main events vs Bret hart for the WWF Championship over in Japan after Mania X.. I'd also like to pint out that there were also several prominent Raw matches throughout 93 and 94 vs the likes of Doink and Yokozuna among others. so this idea that Vince wouldn't let him wrestle and only wanted him to be an announcer after his divorce until he left is really quite rubbish. he was prominently featured on multiple PPV's,, had some high-profile Raw matches, was definitely a fixture on the house show circuit, and was THISCLOSE to main-eventing his fourth WrestleMania. was Randy happy with his slot? probably not - I'm sure he felt capable of being used in top-level angles and main event matches all the way until the day he left. but this idea that he wasn't allowed to wrestle and only allowed to be a broadcaster by Vince from 92 until he left is complete nonsense. Those are Randy's claims, not Lanny. Randy says he needed time off himself on the new dvd in an old interview. And in one of the only shoot interviews Savage ever did, he says that is why he left. Had no idea he was slated to win the 93 RR.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Dec 26, 2014 18:04:21 GMT -5
I never bought the whole concept that Randy was supposed to win the Rumble either in '93. They were clearly building for Yokozuna to win it, because he was being built as an unstoppable monster at the time.
Bret Hart even states in his own book that Yoko was scheduled to win the Rumble and never mentioned anything about Savage winning it. I think the whole "Randy Savage was supposed to win the '93 Rumble" was started by someone on the internet, and then it just grew into something that people thought was real.
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Post by mikey1974 on Dec 26, 2014 19:27:37 GMT -5
in all honesty, Lanny's speech about Randy needing time off from wrestling after his divorce is kinda bullsh*t. - Liz and Randy get divorced in the summer of 1992. Randy was WWF Champion at this time,defended the Belt all summer vs Ric Flair at house shows and dark match main events,wrestled Ultimate Warrior at Summerslam, dropped the Belt to Flair shortly thereafter, started a program with Razor Ramon, formed the Ultimate Maniacs, teamed with Mr. Perfect vs Razor and Flair at Survivor Series, feuded with Razor Ramon winter 92 / 93, wrestled in the Royal Rumble 1993 AND WAS SLATED TO WIN until Vince changed his mind at the last minute (which would've put Randy in the main event of Mania 9), and he DID feud with HBK in the spring/summer of 1993 for the IC Belt ( I saw them wrestle twice, once at a TV taping,once at a house show in 93), before having a pretty quiet summer of 93. then in the fall of 1993, his feud with Crush started,which would last through Survivor Series,the Rumble 93, and Wrestlemania X. only after Mania X did he seem to really scale back and not really be featured as much,until he left in fall 1994, but was featured in main events vs Bret hart for the WWF Championship over in Japan after Mania X.. I'd also like to pint out that there were also several prominent Raw matches throughout 93 and 94 vs the likes of Doink and Yokozuna among others. so this idea that Vince wouldn't let him wrestle and only wanted him to be an announcer after his divorce until he left is really quite rubbish. he was prominently featured on multiple PPV's,, had some high-profile Raw matches, was definitely a fixture on the house show circuit, and was THISCLOSE to main-eventing his fourth WrestleMania. was Randy happy with his slot? probably not - I'm sure he felt capable of being used in top-level angles and main event matches all the way until the day he left. but this idea that he wasn't allowed to wrestle and only allowed to be a broadcaster by Vince from 92 until he left is complete nonsense. Those are Randy's claims, not Lanny. Randy says he needed time off himself on the new dvd in an old interview. And in one of the only shoot interviews Savage ever did, he says that is why he left. Had no idea he was slated to win the 93 RR. even so,his time off after the divorce had to be minimal - he was on a ton of shows from 92 into 93. and while certainly not wrestling every week like he was on Nitro, he was still wrestling fairly regularly in 93 and 94.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Dec 26, 2014 21:11:44 GMT -5
He wanted a break, and then wanted to come back, and Vince said no, we're doing a youth movement. it's pretty well know that's why he left, and he has said so, what's there to argue? Randy hung on with the company a lot longer than others, but when he wasn't even allowed to wrestle much, and no where near main event, he left.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2014 2:15:14 GMT -5
I often wonder that Savage didn't find a way to pin his woes in 93/94 on Hogan too since everything else wrong with Savages career was apparently down to Hogan too.
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Post by mikey1974 on Dec 27, 2014 4:41:20 GMT -5
He wanted a break, and then wanted to come back, and Vince said no, we're doing a youth movement. it's pretty well know that's why he left, and he has said so, what's there to argue? Randy hung on with the company a lot longer than others, but when he wasn't even allowed to wrestle much, and no where near main event, he left. the argument I'm trying to make is that Randy has portrayed himself as taking a break,then wanting to come back afterwards and Vince shutting him down,and wanting him to only be an announcer. which isn't true. he wrestled plenty while still announcing - feuds/matches with Doink,Repo Man, Yokozuna,Crush, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart,and others all happened after his break. I'm NOT saying he was happy,or should have been, being limited to an occasional attraction used sparingly. what I AM saying is Randy has portrayed the situation as Vince not allowing him to wrestle AT ALL after he was done with the break, which is simply not true. he had plenty of matches and a high-profile feud with Crush that lasted through several PPV's before he left.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Dec 27, 2014 5:08:47 GMT -5
I often wonder that Savage didn't find a way to pin his woes in 93/94 on Hogan too since everything else wrong with Savages career was apparently down to Hogan too. Well he did do that odd Radio WWF interview where he trashed Hogan around that period. Never been able to find it online, have read the transcript, I think that's where he calls him a liar for the Arsenio stuff. Like a year or so later he's posing with Hogan, Linda and Liz for the new Mega powers. Anyway I was trying to point out that Savage seemed unusually resentful, and no one ever points out his programs as a possible source of resentment based on Vince firing the person he just put over or was currently working with which happened repeatedly. A very resentful person would fictionalize that as personal, be insulted and add it to a tally, not move on and forget about it. That would be the case with Savage if he's screaming about the legends battle royal and punching the wall when his father died. People tend to act like there's missing info here, but I don't think there is if you look at everything closely.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Dec 27, 2014 5:12:31 GMT -5
He wanted a break, and then wanted to come back, and Vince said no, we're doing a youth movement. it's pretty well know that's why he left, and he has said so, what's there to argue? Randy hung on with the company a lot longer than others, but when he wasn't even allowed to wrestle much, and no where near main event, he left. the argument I'm trying to make is that Randy has portrayed himself as taking a break,then wanting to come back afterwards and Vince shutting him down,and wanting him to only be an announcer. which isn't true. he wrestled plenty while still announcing - feuds/matches with Doink,Repo Man, Yokozuna,Crush, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart,and others all happened after his break. I'm NOT saying he was happy,or should have been, being limited to an occasional attraction used sparingly. what I AM saying is Randy has portrayed the situation as Vince not allowing him to wrestle AT ALL after he was done with the break, which is simply not true. he had plenty of matches and a high-profile feud with Crush that lasted through several PPV's before he left. Fair enough, the feud with Crush was actually exciting, Savage gets dropped on the guardrail, backstage attack, intense interview with Savage in street clothes, Savage-Crush summit, then the match stunk up MSG with it's ridiculous convoluted stipulations and ending involving a rope pully. lol I loved that whole period with Savage actually since I got to hear him on commentary the whole show and see him wrestle. He really tried to get Crush over there. I still thought he was main event and should have been in the title picture though.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Dec 27, 2014 12:55:26 GMT -5
the argument I'm trying to make is that Randy has portrayed himself as taking a break,then wanting to come back afterwards and Vince shutting him down,and wanting him to only be an announcer. which isn't true. he wrestled plenty while still announcing - feuds/matches with Doink,Repo Man, Yokozuna,Crush, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart,and others all happened after his break. I'm NOT saying he was happy,or should have been, being limited to an occasional attraction used sparingly. what I AM saying is Randy has portrayed the situation as Vince not allowing him to wrestle AT ALL after he was done with the break, which is simply not true. he had plenty of matches and a high-profile feud with Crush that lasted through several PPV's before he left. Fair enough, the feud with Crush was actually exciting, Savage gets dropped on the guardrail, backstage attack, intense interview with Savage in street clothes, Savage-Crush summit, then the match stunk up MSG with it's ridiculous convoluted stipulations and ending involving a rope pully. lol I loved that whole period with Savage actually since I got to hear him on commentary the whole show and see him wrestle. He really tried to get Crush over there. I still thought he was main event and should have been in the title picture though. Some useless trivia for ya about the Savage/Crush feud. When Crush laid out Savage the night he went heel, and press dropped Savage face first into the guardrail, Savage bit his tongue so bad it almost ripped in half. He had to get a lot of stitches to fix it up. If you watch the angle, you can see blood coming from Randy's mouth too after that spot happens.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Dec 29, 2014 3:10:33 GMT -5
Fair enough, the feud with Crush was actually exciting, Savage gets dropped on the guardrail, backstage attack, intense interview with Savage in street clothes, Savage-Crush summit, then the match stunk up MSG with it's ridiculous convoluted stipulations and ending involving a rope pully. lol I loved that whole period with Savage actually since I got to hear him on commentary the whole show and see him wrestle. He really tried to get Crush over there. I still thought he was main event and should have been in the title picture though. Some useless trivia for ya about the Savage/Crush feud. When Crush laid out Savage the night he went heel, and press dropped Savage face first into the guardrail, Savage bit his tongue so bad it almost ripped in half. He had to get a lot of stitches to fix it up. If you watch the angle, you can see blood coming from Randy's mouth too after that spot happens. I vaguely remember that, with Savage there's a chance that nut did it on purpose. I don't think I'd seen Savage Steamboat at that point, so it was a fresh angle to me.
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Post by johnnyb on Dec 29, 2014 3:45:25 GMT -5
TBH I've heard that Vince was mostly pissed about being "blindsided" by the loss of Slim Jim as a sponsor when Savage brought the deal with him to WCW. Randy thought he still had a lot of value left as an in-ring performer (and he was right), and Vince was too stubborn to admit that so he let Savage walk. And since Savage basically became a ghost after his weird, roided-up WCW return in 1999-2000, he and Vince never really had a chance to bury the hatchet, despite the fact that Savage got his licensing deal with Mattel and the like. I'd be pretty surprised if there was much more to it than that. Those rumors about Savage and Stephanie creep me out and have not been verified by a single person despite the fact that most early-mid 90s wrestling personalities are asked about it in shoot interviews. I'd like to give the Macho Man the benefit of the doubt and assume he is not a pedophile.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 5:13:48 GMT -5
I have never bought the Steph stuff either......
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Post by Hulk Who? on Dec 30, 2014 6:33:49 GMT -5
Savage was a huge kid nut, I doubt he's go after a minor if you had put a gun to his head. Then again Gorgeous George made a comment about her little sister and a threesome once in an interview as the reason they broke up. Who knows, she hardly seems reliable. But I do think it all came from that video he made from MachoMan.com, they showed it on the new Macho set, that's as far as they go in addressing those rumors. If Macho grew up playing with Steph as a little girl, I can see Vince thinking that comment about her was disgusting. It really just seemed like Macho trying to stay relevant.
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Post by marino13 on Dec 30, 2014 9:16:07 GMT -5
I still believe that Vince was perfectly okay with letting Savage go to wCw. And he still respected Savage enough to give him a proper farewell on RAW. I always viewed their relationship much like Bret & Vince were before the MSJ. Go to wCw for now, but there will always be a place for you in WWE sorta thing.
Then it all went to hell when Savage convinced Slim Jim to leave WWE and follow him to wCw. And Vince needed that source of income at the time. Now Vince feels betrayed. Now Vince is pissed. Now the gloves come off. Now comes the Huckster & Nacho Man vignettes. Gasoline has been poured on the bridge. There's no going back now.
That leads to Randy now being pissed off. And as I'm sure we can all tell Randy is not the most stable of characters out there. So Vince was dead to him. The relationship was ruined.
Things finally started to feel like they were on the mend before Savage's untimely passing.
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Dec 30, 2014 11:56:22 GMT -5
I dont believe the Stephanie rumors either. If it is true, why didnt Savage go to jail? If I was Vince, no way in hell would I let that happen to my daughter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 6:17:26 GMT -5
I still believe that Vince was perfectly okay with letting Savage go to wCw. And he still respected Savage enough to give him a proper farewell on RAW. I always viewed their relationship much like Bret & Vince were before the MSJ. Go to wCw for now, but there will always be a place for you in WWE sorta thing. Then it all went to hell when Savage convinced Slim Jim to leave WWE and follow him to wCw. And Vince needed that source of income at the time. Now Vince feels betrayed. Now Vince is pissed. Now the gloves come off. Now comes the Huckster & Nacho Man vignettes. Gasoline has been poured on the bridge. There's no going back now. That leads to Randy now being pissed off. And as I'm sure we can all tell Randy is not the most stable of characters out there. So Vince was dead to him. The relationship was ruined. Things finally started to feel like they were on the mend before Savage's untimely passing. Pretty much man however I don't think things were genuinely on the mend.....Ill give my opinion on the two items that folks refer to..... 1)Vince allowing Mattel to pursue Savage for action figures was IMO a Launchpad to show how much better Mattel were from Jakks and that Mattel were a fresh new exciting start where anything could happen. It was very clever strategy....because it worked a treat. Vince still had his beef with Jakks and this was a middle finger to them..... 2)The dvd was actually a giant f*ck you to Savage. Doing a career dvd on somebody without their participation(especially given Savage's personality) was a much a thumb in the eye as anything. Its not like they asked Savage and he declined......they powered on without him. the rest of my thoughts on Savage/Vince Savage and Vince obviously parted on good terms(how anybody can dispute this is mind boggling) but like Marino says something happened while Savage was in WCW. Seems we will never know...... Also this theory about Hogan vetoing his return in 2002(saying its him or me) is crap of the highest order. McMahon fell out with Hogan about once a year for 5 years in the 00's. If this veto thing had any merit he would have brought Savage in to annoy Hogan. Also Vince's ratings were falling off the pierhead in 2002 and he was pulling at EVERY string he could to get buzz. Savage just had a large role in Spider Man which was a huge financial, critical and media success....he would've been after him for sure. Vince made buddies with Bischoff.......but not Savage? Ya gotta wonder what the hell it was.
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