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Post by Hulk Who? on Dec 31, 2014 8:12:26 GMT -5
I still believe that Vince was perfectly okay with letting Savage go to wCw. And he still respected Savage enough to give him a proper farewell on RAW. I always viewed their relationship much like Bret & Vince were before the MSJ. Go to wCw for now, but there will always be a place for you in WWE sorta thing. Then it all went to hell when Savage convinced Slim Jim to leave WWE and follow him to wCw. And Vince needed that source of income at the time. Now Vince feels betrayed. Now Vince is pissed. Now the gloves come off. Now comes the Huckster & Nacho Man vignettes. Gasoline has been poured on the bridge. There's no going back now. That leads to Randy now being pissed off. And as I'm sure we can all tell Randy is not the most stable of characters out there. So Vince was dead to him. The relationship was ruined. Things finally started to feel like they were on the mend before Savage's untimely passing. Pretty much man however I don't think things were genuinely on the mend.....Ill give my opinion on the two items that folks refer to..... 1)Vince allowing Mattel to pursue Savage for action figures was IMO a Launchpad to show how much better Mattel were from Jakks and that Mattel were a fresh new exciting start where anything could happen. It was very clever strategy....because it worked a treat. Vince still had his beef with Jakks and this was a middle finger to them..... 2)The dvd was actually a giant f*ck you to Savage. Doing a career dvd on somebody without their participation(especially given Savage's personality) was a much a thumb in the eye as anything. Its not like they asked Savage and he declined......they powered on without him. the rest of my thoughts on Savage/Vince Savage and Vince obviously parted on good terms(how anybody can dispute this is mind boggling) but like Marino says something happened while Savage was in WCW. Seems we will never know......Also this theory about Hogan vetoing his return in 2002(saying its him or me) is crap of the highest order. McMahon fell out with Hogan about once a year for 5 years in the 00's. If this veto thing had any merit he would have brought Savage in to annoy Hogan. Also Vince's ratings were falling off the pierhead in 2002 and he was pulling at EVERY string he could to get buzz. Savage just had a large role in Spider Man which was a huge financial, critical and media success....he would've been after him for sure. Vince made buddies with Bischoff.......but not Savage? Ya gotta wonder what the hell it was.Savage might have been pissed off leaving, but Vince didn't know. Of course it's clear form the Raw sendoff he did for no one else, Vince was not bitter, or pissed off, he was sad. That's why I'm trying to point to Savage's resentments, not Vince's, it explains things if it's Savage keeping himself out and living like a recluse. And as was said, Vince might have began feeling bitter when he realized Slim Jim was leaving too, because something changed between the sendoff and Nacho Man. I can see Savage thinking his whole career was messed up by various people, wasn't shy about saying that about Hogan, would it really shock anyone if he felt the same about Vince to some degree? If he was impossible to do business with, Vince not holding a grudge doesn't matter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 11:53:00 GMT -5
Yeah maybe it WAS all on savages side......nobody really considers that....good point there.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Dec 31, 2014 12:19:54 GMT -5
Did Slim Jim leave though?? Because I remember commercials still happening with Bam Bam Bigelow and Diesel I thought in 1995 for Slim Jim with the WWE.
Vince over time could have just gotten angry at Randy for leaving like some people do when an ex breaks up with them. Maybe Randy leaving hurt Vince the most. I know it hurt him when Kevin Nash left too. I remember reading in a Raw magazine that was uncut, where Vince was saying that Diesel going to WCW hurt a lot on a personal level with him. Maybe the same can be said about Randy Savage leaving too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 13:03:15 GMT -5
Nash going "hurt" Vince according to many because he was a guy that Vince totally created, built and gave the World belt to. He underestimated the lure of WCWs $$$ AGAIN with Hall & Nash.
He soon got over them giving their notice though.....he was convinced Bischoff would squander them. Good grief was he wrong or what.
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Post by Patrick Bateman (original) on Dec 31, 2014 14:20:08 GMT -5
Also this theory about Hogan vetoing his return in 2002(saying its him or me) is crap of the highest order. McMahon fell out with Hogan about once a year for 5 years in the 00's. If this veto thing had any merit he would have brought Savage in to annoy Hogan. First Slim Jim stayed with WWF for awhile after Savage left. They made commercials with Bam Bam, Diesel and Warrior (they are on youtube). Vince ended the Slim Jim deal. Second it is all about Hogan. They did not get along Hogan black balled Savage in WWE. You mention why didn't WWE bring Savage back to annoy Hogan while he was gone? They did. In the DEBUT Smackdown magazine (while Hogan left again) they did this then Hogan came back and Savage wasn't heard from again. I think Savage knew they brought him in to piss Hogan off and didn't want any part of that. So when Hogan left for a good while to TNA that's when they once again brought in Savage (probably saying they will never do business with Hogan again).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 19:10:10 GMT -5
First Slim Jim stayed with WWF for awhile after Savage left. They made commercials with Bam Bam, Diesel and Warrior (they are on youtube). Vince ended the Slim Jim deal. Second it is all about Hogan. They did not get along Hogan black balled Savage in WWE. You mention why didn't WWE bring Savage back to annoy Hogan while he was gone? They did. In the DEBUT Smackdown magazine (while Hogan left again) they did this then Hogan came back and Savage wasn't heard from again. I think Savage knew they brought him in to piss Hogan off and didn't want any part of that. So when Hogan left for a good while to TNA that's when they once again brought in Savage (probably saying they will never do business with Hogan again). Nah......not buying that.If Vince wanted Savage back he would've been brought back. A spread in SD mag is no evidence to the contrary IMO
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Post by Hulk Who? on Jan 1, 2015 10:11:36 GMT -5
I've never seen that Smackdown article, that's a surprise to me that he was featured like that in 2004. Missing page 63 though. They never brought Savage in for any appearances, there's that article, then the figures and the All Stars promo are the next things I'm aware of, Hogan had whole runs, even titles, hell he beat Triple H for the undisputed title. I doubt that article was done just to piss off Hogan. So can't it be said now Vince didn't have a problem with him in 2004? And Savage sounds friendly in the interview, not resentful. Damn thing is getting more confusing now. lol It would still add up if it was Savage with resentments, and he's known for that, while Vince is known for doing business with absolutely anyone eventually. Exception to that would be someone like Nailz. So many rumors, like that Randy punched Vince in a bar or something, think Roddy said that at some point, but .... I love him but he's Roddy he says all sorts of stuff.
Yea and that Slim Jim timeline is off, we've heard lots of wrestling personalities point to Macho taking the contract with him ignoring the Diesel and Bigelow ads that continued. But we do know that Nash told the Slim Jim people to go back to Randy, and they did. Nash was laughing about in an interview hoping the statute of limitations was up because he had never told anyone especially Vince that it was actually him who messed up the sponsorship deal for WWF and Slim Jim. I guess various wrestlers have said Savage acted particularly erratic at various points, more so than usual, like punching Hawk at a concert and running off, hating Hogan at various points, then doing business with him again. Savage might have had emotional problems where he swung back and forth. Unless we're missing something here, I think this is on Savage. But there is also Macho being wiped clean from everything for years. Vince and Savage might have just worked themselves into more and more resentment for perceived slights that weren't all that real and we have what happened. Who knows I'm a little more confused about it now than when I made the OP.
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Post by Patrick Bateman (original) on Jan 1, 2015 12:58:09 GMT -5
I think page 63 is just an advertisement.
Like I said I am not sure if it was Hogan not wanting to be around if Savage was around, or Savage not wanting to be around if Hulk was, or Vince wanting one or the other. I am going to guess it is probably Savage not wanting to be around if Hulk was.
Warrior kept in contact with Savage through the years and he had some rough things to say about Hogan when Savage passed. About how Hogan was a liar about Savage and everything he was saying about him was bullshit. He mentions things Hogan did to Savage while he was gone.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Jan 1, 2015 22:29:16 GMT -5
I think page 63 is just an advertisement. Like I said I am not sure if it was Hogan not wanting to be around if Savage was around, or Savage not wanting to be around if Hulk was, or Vince wanting one or the other. I am going to guess it is probably Savage not wanting to be around if Hulk was. Warrior kept in contact with Savage through the years and he had some rough things to say about Hogan when Savage passed. About how Hogan was a liar about Savage and everything he was saying about him was bullshit. He mentions things Hogan did to Savage while he was gone. That was what was going on in TNA, and it was Savage not wanting to be around Hogan. I def saw the Warrior shoots, I made a joke about it in a Target exclusive thread and no one seemed to know wtf I was on about. If you didn't see that karma collects video you'd have thought I had lost my mind and was making a strange threat about shooting someone at Mattel, I think that's what happened. lol I'll repost it it's worth laughing at: "I started my Legends collection about a year ago, and I'm going to be honest, I don't like BAF and exclusives. I'll break the ice, I'll load that bullet up into the chamber, and I will shoulder the weapon, and I'm gonna pull the trigger. *awkward pause and nostril flare* I'll pull that trigger. This, BAF and exclusives, is how karma is coming to collect. You know Terr- er BAF, when I think about how your mind operates, I think about melted cheese.
BAF throwin back shots of whiskey, and poppin pills for breakfast, sitting across from exclusives, who is eating his own bowl of steroids and other gimmicks. That was a better life?
Everything about you is still the gimmick, BAF and exclusives."
No love for that video apparently. I'll probably get crickets for the second time. 'If you lift up that flap of extensions you'll find the scarecrow, the tin man and the lion, because you don't have a brain, you don't have a heart and you have absolutely no f*cking courage.' Don't hold back or anything, Warrior. I have that thing downloaded in case it gets taken down one day, it's amazing.
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Post by JC Motors on Jan 1, 2015 23:30:09 GMT -5
I have never bought the Steph stuff either...... How did that originate?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 4:44:04 GMT -5
I have never bought the Steph stuff either...... How did that originate? No clue man. also it's strange to me how Warrior is now this pillar of virtue since he passed and every word he says is gospel. To me he is still the guy that ignored a sick make a wish kid for an entire show while he did his prima Donna thing.I'm not inclined to believe or buy anything he said.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Jan 2, 2015 7:51:48 GMT -5
I have never bought the Steph stuff either...... How did that originate? I thought it was this, sorry about the title if that's against the rules, I can't find another version No one's word is gospel to me, certainly not Warrior, he's half crazed in the karma collects shoot, but everyone's a mixed bag and I'll take what info I can glean from various people. The part in the karma collects video where I realized for sure he was not all there, was when he said Hulkamania is one of the leading forces in the downfall of America, TODAY. His character and the way it ended seems to have consumed him into some solipsistic delusion. It's like he thought the constellation opening of WMVI was a shoot, he and Hogan were the two most powerful forces in the universe colliding. Still love him and get all his figures, but parts of that shoot were scary to watch, parts funny, parts informative. When the karma video first went up, the top comment I remember on it was, "Alright, so are we going to kill Hulk Hogan?" lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 10:36:34 GMT -5
Who knows what really happened during the heyday of steroids, cocaine, lies, pills and deceit?
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Post by Hulk Who? on Jan 3, 2015 6:59:24 GMT -5
^ Yup, but I'm trying to figure it out. I think what we have is that there are perceived slights on both sides that were blown out of proportion. I wasn't aware of that article, and I just watched WM X8, Savage is in the opening, which surprised me, so now I know Vince didn't have any problem at that point. I have been a very resentful person in the past and studied it in Nietzsche, so I think I know how that type of person works, you fictionalize things and blow tiny things out of proportion with hyper analysis of micro aggressions, you see them everywhere. That sounds like what happened, but its hard to tell how much is on whose part or if they're both doing it. Savage did it to Hogan, maybe with reason, but it doesn't matter, you can't let yourself become that resentful because it's unhealthy for you. But it did always strike me as really inappropriate and even a hurtful shot at Savage that he wasn't in the show opening, instead they act like it was Hogan, Flair and Hart, which is a joke, it was Andre, Hogan, Piper, Jake, Savage, Warrior etc.
In other words, I would guess nothing happened, it's all immaturity, hurt feelings and what I already described. I don't think a damn thing happened after that 2004 article except inner turmoil. Meanwhile everyone is looking for some event that occurred, when they're probably mental events. Who knows maybe I'm an idiot babbling too much, can close the thread if you want. I think we've figured out as much as we can.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jan 3, 2015 8:09:22 GMT -5
I still believe that Vince was perfectly okay with letting Savage go to wCw. And he still respected Savage enough to give him a proper farewell on RAW. I always viewed their relationship much like Bret & Vince were before the MSJ. Go to wCw for now, but there will always be a place for you in WWE sorta thing. Then it all went to hell when Savage convinced Slim Jim to leave WWE and follow him to wCw. And Vince needed that source of income at the time. Now Vince feels betrayed. Now Vince is pissed. Now the gloves come off. Now comes the Huckster & Nacho Man vignettes. Gasoline has been poured on the bridge. There's no going back now. That leads to Randy now being pissed off. And as I'm sure we can all tell Randy is not the most stable of characters out there. So Vince was dead to him. The relationship was ruined. Things finally started to feel like they were on the mend before Savage's untimely passing. Pretty much man however I don't think things were genuinely on the mend.....Ill give my opinion on the two items that folks refer to..... 1)Vince allowing Mattel to pursue Savage for action figures was IMO a Launchpad to show how much better Mattel were from Jakks and that Mattel were a fresh new exciting start where anything could happen. It was very clever strategy....because it worked a treat. Vince still had his beef with Jakks and this was a middle finger to them..... 2)The dvd was actually a giant f*ck you to Savage. Doing a career dvd on somebody without their participation(especially given Savage's personality) was a much a thumb in the eye as anything. Its not like they asked Savage and he declined......they powered on without him. the rest of my thoughts on Savage/Vince Savage and Vince obviously parted on good terms(how anybody can dispute this is mind boggling) but like Marino says something happened while Savage was in WCW. Seems we will never know...... Also this theory about Hogan vetoing his return in 2002(saying its him or me) is crap of the highest order. McMahon fell out with Hogan about once a year for 5 years in the 00's. If this veto thing had any merit he would have brought Savage in to annoy Hogan. Also Vince's ratings were falling off the pierhead in 2002 and he was pulling at EVERY string he could to get buzz. Savage just had a large role in Spider Man which was a huge financial, critical and media success....he would've been after him for sure. Vince made buddies with Bischoff.......but not Savage? Ya gotta wonder what the hell it was. What was Vince's beef with Jakks? And Savage was in the original Spiderman?! I don't remember that at all!
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Post by Hulk Who? on Jan 3, 2015 8:14:54 GMT -5
^ He was Bonesaw McGraw in Spiderman of course. I dunno about the Mattel deal being a slight at Jakks, maybe Jakks just couldn't get Savage and Steamboat, idk I wasn't collecting any of them. And I thought they did ask Randy to participate in the first dvd and he didn't cooperate. Savage is and was my favorite guy but it's obvious he was troubled. He was living as a recluse on a damn compound no one was allowed to visit it seemed, so maybe he just wouldn't talk to Jakks, and then was in a better mindset when Mattel rolled around. I think the line Vince gave Mattel about it was, "sign him if you can."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 8:21:36 GMT -5
^ He was Bonesaw McGraw in Spiderman of course. I dunno about the Mattel deal being a slight at Jakks, maybe Jakks just couldn't get Savage and Steamboat, idk I wasn't collecting any of them. And I thought they did ask Randy to participate in the first dvd and he didn't cooperate. Savage is and was my favorite guy but it's obvious he was troubled. Jeremy Padawar said on numerous occasions that they were strictly forbidden from approaching Savage.Mattel wanted him to kickstart their initiative and Vince allowed it.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Jan 3, 2015 8:37:44 GMT -5
OK then, what you said about using Hogan and Savage as pawns in the 2000s makes more sense to me now. Hell why can't Vince just explain this crap, I was hoping he would on the last dvd, instead we got various people saying "we'll never know." Vince knows and he didn't appear once, and the guy is dead now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 10:55:13 GMT -5
Yeah I wish to f#ck Vince would just say what happened here......on Flairs RF shoot he was asked and said " no way man I ain't touching that" or some such.....that really raised my eyebrow I tell ya
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 13:07:40 GMT -5
Surprised they didn't go into this with more detail in the newest Macho Man documentary.
Maybe Vince wants him in the Hall of Fame so badly he doesn't want to say anything that will bring up bad feelings and cause Lanny Poffo (The Poffo Family) to turn down the Hall of Fame offer?
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