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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 25, 2015 18:41:29 GMT -5
Whether he was under contract or not he was still a representative of WWF. He was the WWF Champion. He was making the media rounds as a WWF Employee. He was still working on a WWF card in a WWF ring and had already or would be collecting a check for that match. We knew for over a month (The Taker-HBK HIAC match was a #1 Contenders match) that Bret was going to have to wrestle HBK. Hell, we knew it was coming before that as they had been building the feud for months between the two off and on. As fans we knew so there is no doubt Bret knew he was gonna have to face him. If he didnt want to drop the title to HBK then he should have said something months before so creative could work something out or even refuse to take the title from Undertaker, remember he supposedly had creative control....But he didnt, that wouldnt stroke Bret's ego. He always wants to talk about how professional he is/was but he made something professional, personal. All he needed to do was walk in, do the job and leave and everything would have been fine. Instead he wanted to throw a hissy so he could get his way and it bit him in his ass. And how can he even say with a straight face that he would drop the title to Shamrock? Who in their right mind would be ok with that? Shamrock was a joke. Bret seriously said he would make him the Champion, that's pretty damn disrespectful to Vince, the WWF and the fans! He should have spoke up MONTHS before after winning the title from Undertaker and said he wanted to drop it to Austin because as much as Bret likes to whine about people not returning the favor for him, I dont recall one time Austin getting a clean victory over Bret. He lost at Survivor Series 1996, Eliminated (somewhat) from Royal Rumble, Eliminated from Final Four & Lost at Wrestlemania. I guess that's what he was going to do "last minute" when he found out he was going to have to lose to HBK. Whew, good thing they didnt have Austin in a storyline with someone else for the previous 6 months.
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Post by PJ on Aug 26, 2015 17:19:41 GMT -5
I remember watching that on Netflix and found it entertaining. As for the MSJ all parties involved were at fault...but I personally always sided with Bret for the most part.
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Post by JC Motors on Aug 28, 2015 16:46:02 GMT -5
Is this documentary on DVD in the USA? I read on IMDB that the UK has it on DVD
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Post by cordless2016 on Aug 28, 2015 20:31:42 GMT -5
Whether he was under contract or not he was still a representative of WWF. He was the WWF Champion. He was making the media rounds as a WWF Employee. He was still working on a WWF card in a WWF ring and had already or would be collecting a check for that match. We knew for over a month (The Taker-HBK HIAC match was a #1 Contenders match) that Bret was going to have to wrestle HBK. Hell, we knew it was coming before that as they had been building the feud for months between the two off and on. As fans we knew so there is no doubt Bret knew he was gonna have to face him. If he didnt want to drop the title to HBK then he should have said something months before so creative could work something out or even refuse to take the title from Undertaker, remember he supposedly had creative control....But he didnt, that wouldnt stroke Bret's ego. He always wants to talk about how professional he is/was but he made something professional, personal. All he needed to do was walk in, do the job and leave and everything would have been fine. Instead he wanted to throw a hissy so he could get his way and it bit him in his ass. And how can he even say with a straight face that he would drop the title to Shamrock? Who in their right mind would be ok with that? Shamrock was a joke. Bret seriously said he would make him the Champion, that's pretty damn disrespectful to Vince, the WWF and the fans! He should have spoke up MONTHS before after winning the title from Undertaker and said he wanted to drop it to Austin because as much as Bret likes to whine about people not returning the favor for him, I dont recall one time Austin getting a clean victory over Bret. He lost at Survivor Series 1996, Eliminated (somewhat) from Royal Rumble, Eliminated from Final Four & Lost at Wrestlemania. I guess that's what he was going to do "last minute" when he found out he was going to have to lose to HBK. Whew, good thing they didnt have Austin in a storyline with someone else for the previous 6 months. Nobody can seriously say Vince didn't know he was going push Bret out 3 months after putting the title on him. Bret and Vince were having a lot of issues by summer slam, and Bret and HBK could have exploded at any moment. Vince shouldn't have put the title on him. Bret also didn't originally refuse to lose to Shawn. He was willing to put Shawn over if Shawn put him over. HBK, who was hated by EVERYBODY, said he would never do the job for ANYONE again. Bret wasn't just refusing to do the job because of there issues. He was standing up for the locker room. Bret also gave Vince a list of every name on the roster except HBK and HHH, saying he would drop the title to any of them. Vince had options. He didn't have to put the belt on Bret. He didn't have to have HBK take the title from him. Hell he could have probably squashed the Bret/HBK issues in one meeting if he wanted to but didn't and the whole thing wouldn't have happened. Bret isn't totally blameless but I put more blame on Vince and HBK than Bret. |
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Post by hbkjason on Aug 29, 2015 2:45:24 GMT -5
At the end of the day everyone of them is in the wrong in some capacity, but Vince and Shawn agreed to something and then  ed Bret Hart over. I do not buy the whole Bret Hart showing up in WCW with the belt can anyone honestly say they think, Bret Hart would have done this? Vince and Shawn wanted to stick it to Bret Hart and that is exactly what they did. I love Shawn Michaels, consider him to be the greatest in ring performer of all time, but back then he was a real slimy, horrible person. How many people from that era have a good thing to say about Shawn Michaels as a person or a work colleague? Still though this whole situation made for an amazing documentary. |
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Post by mikey1974 on Aug 29, 2015 19:46:13 GMT -5
It all comes down to Vince - he should have taken the belt off Bret LONG before this. BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Haggar you have nailed it. To me Vince is every bit as liable here with his inaction and poor decisions on the run in to SSeries 97. Exhibit A.....Why on Earth did Vince put the title on Bret at Summerslam? And before anybody says "oh he didn't know things wouldn't work out" that's crap. Surely he should have played his cards safe and put the title on HBK here? Vince HAD TO have known in August of 1997 that he wouldn't be able to afford Bret's contract and he was gonna tell him to go to WCW. Anybody that thinks otherwise? IMCO is delusional......NO WAY did this whole $$ issue just rear its head in October of 97.......and even if it did? There was still time. Exhibit B......Vinnie's excuse about "he was afraid Bret would run to Bischoff with the belt" is more rubbish. The fearsome Jerry McDevitt had Turner legal on the ropes with Vince's copyright infringement lawsuit concerning Hall & Nash debuting, insinuating Vince sent them, Hall acting like Razor, etc in 96. No way no how would Turner legal have given the greenlight to Bret turning up with Vinnie's 3rd born child on WCW tv. They were in enough sh*t. just my two pennies....... EXCELLENT posts! - Bret not only left because Vince was reneging on his contract - a legally binding contract, I might add, that Vince desperately wanted Bret to sign in 1996 - but because, even though he was the Champion, he was almost a mid-carder as Shawn took the #1 Heel spot from him at SummerSlam. - Vince kept jerking Bret around for weeks. first he could afford the contract, then he couldn't, then he could, etc. hell, at one point he even told Bret they were going to be downsizing back to a northeastern regional promotion and cutting back on the PPV's, after all the money the WWF lost in the previous 2 years. - Bret said Bischoff had NO - absolutely NO - intentions of ever allowing the WWF Championship to appear on WCW Nitro, and Bret told Vince as much. WCW was still being sued by Vince for Alundra Blayze showing WWF intellectual property on TNT, and they were still in the midst of the legalities of the Hall and Nash situation. ... here's the thing - Bret was FINE with dropping the title to Shawn, UNTIL Shawn told him that if the situation was reversed he would never lie down for Bret. so Bret invoked the creative control clause. even so, Bret was STILL willing to drop it to Shawn the next night on Raw, in front of a bigger viewing audience, if Shawn would lose at Survivor series. but Shawn absolutely refused to work with Bret, so Bret absolutely refused to drop it to Shawn. he was willing to drop it to Austin, Shamrock, Taker, or Mankind. but Vince's insistence that Shawn simply HAD to go over made the Screwjob happen. |
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Post by OmegaGaijin on Aug 30, 2015 8:46:34 GMT -5
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Haggar you have nailed it. To me Vince is every bit as liable here with his inaction and poor decisions on the run in to SSeries 97. Exhibit A.....Why on Earth did Vince put the title on Bret at Summerslam? And before anybody says "oh he didn't know things wouldn't work out" that's crap. Surely he should have played his cards safe and put the title on HBK here? Vince HAD TO have known in August of 1997 that he wouldn't be able to afford Bret's contract and he was gonna tell him to go to WCW. Anybody that thinks otherwise? IMCO is delusional......NO WAY did this whole $$ issue just rear its head in October of 97.......and even if it did? There was still time. Exhibit B......Vinnie's excuse about "he was afraid Bret would run to Bischoff with the belt" is more rubbish. The fearsome Jerry McDevitt had Turner legal on the ropes with Vince's copyright infringement lawsuit concerning Hall & Nash debuting, insinuating Vince sent them, Hall acting like Razor, etc in 96. No way no how would Turner legal have given the greenlight to Bret turning up with Vinnie's 3rd born child on WCW tv. They were in enough sh*t. just my two pennies....... EXCELLENT posts! - Bret not only left because Vince was reneging on his contract - a legally binding contract, I might add, that Vince desperately wanted Bret to sign in 1996 - but because, even though he was the Champion, he was almost a mid-carder as Shawn took the #1 Heel spot from him at SummerSlam. - Vince kept jerking Bret around for weeks. first he could afford the contract, then he couldn't, then he could, etc. hell, at one point he even told Bret they were going to be downsizing back to a northeastern regional promotion and cutting back on the PPV's, after all the money the WWF lost in the previous 2 years. - Bret said Bischoff had NO - absolutely NO - intentions of ever allowing the WWF Championship to appear on WCW Nitro, and Bret told Vince as much. WCW was still being sued by Vince for Alundra Blayze showing WWF intellectual property on TNT, and they were still in the midst of the legalities of the Hall and Nash situation. ... here's the thing - Bret was FINE with dropping the title to Shawn, UNTIL Shawn told him that if the situation was reversed he would never lie down for Bret. so Bret invoked the creative control clause. even so, Bret was STILL willing to drop it to Shawn the next night on Raw, in front of a bigger viewing audience, if Shawn would lose at Survivor series. but Shawn absolutely refused to work with Bret, so Bret absolutely refused to drop it to Shawn. he was willing to drop it to Austin, Shamrock, Taker, or Mankind. but Vince's insistence that Shawn simply HAD to go over made the Screwjob happen. Some folk that actually get it. It's hard for me because Bret is my all time favorite to come across as subjective, but even when i take my pink plastic shades off, i still can't understand how anyone say that Bret was in the wrong. I think people just concede crumbs in debates nowadays to appear intelligent or impartial. But if you wrote down a list of things Bret did wrong in this situation and hold it beside the HHH/VKM/HBK list, it's pretty conclusive. |
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Post by mikey1974 on Aug 30, 2015 13:57:14 GMT -5
Whether he was under contract or not he was still a representative of WWF. He was the WWF Champion. He was making the media rounds as a WWF Employee. He was still working on a WWF card in a WWF ring and had already or would be collecting a check for that match. We knew for over a month (The Taker-HBK HIAC match was a #1 Contenders match) that Bret was going to have to wrestle HBK. Hell, we knew it was coming before that as they had been building the feud for months between the two off and on. As fans we knew so there is no doubt Bret knew he was gonna have to face him. If he didnt want to drop the title to HBK then he should have said something months before so creative could work something out or even refuse to take the title from Undertaker, remember he supposedly had creative control....But he didnt, that wouldnt stroke Bret's ego. He always wants to talk about how professional he is/was but he made something professional, personal. All he needed to do was walk in, do the job and leave and everything would have been fine. Instead he wanted to throw a hissy so he could get his way and it bit him in his ass. And how can he even say with a straight face that he would drop the title to Shamrock? Who in their right mind would be ok with that? Shamrock was a joke. Bret seriously said he would make him the Champion, that's pretty damn disrespectful to Vince, the WWF and the fans! He should have spoke up MONTHS before after winning the title from Undertaker and said he wanted to drop it to Austin because as much as Bret likes to whine about people not returning the favor for him, I dont recall one time Austin getting a clean victory over Bret. He lost at Survivor Series 1996, Eliminated (somewhat) from Royal Rumble, Eliminated from Final Four & Lost at Wrestlemania. I guess that's what he was going to do "last minute" when he found out he was going to have to lose to HBK. Whew, good thing they didnt have Austin in a storyline with someone else for the previous 6 months. Nobody can seriously say Vince didn't know he was going push Bret out 3 months after putting the title on him. Bret and Vince were having a lot of issues by summer slam, and Bret and HBK could have exploded at any moment. Vince shouldn't have put the title on him. Bret also didn't originally refuse to lose to Shawn. He was willing to put Shawn over if Shawn put him over. HBK, who was hated by EVERYBODY, said he would never do the job for ANYONE again. Bret wasn't just refusing to do the job because of there issues. He was standing up for the locker room. Bret also gave Vince a list of every name on the roster except HBK and HHH, saying he would drop the title to any of them. Vince had options. He didn't have to put the belt on Bret. He didn't have to have HBK take the title from him. Hell he could have probably squashed the Bret/HBK issues in one meeting if he wanted to but didn't and the whole thing wouldn't have happened. Bret isn't totally blameless but I put more blame on Vince and HBK than Bret. Vince allowed the Bret - HBK feud to happen. it's been said by several people there during that time, including Bret, that Vince knew there were issues, but for whatever reason would absolutely NEVER say "No" to Shawn. Hell, right after the infamous July Locker Room Incident, Vince told Bret he KNEW something like that was going to happen, because Shawn had told him the week before that the next time Shawn saw Bret he was going to attack him! an employee told his boss he was going to assault another employee a week before he planned to do it! think about that! yet Vince did nothing to stop it. Vince used the real-life hatred between the 2 for ratings, pure and simple. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Aug 30, 2015 17:06:39 GMT -5
Nobody can seriously say Vince didn't know he was going push Bret out 3 months after putting the title on him. Bret and Vince were having a lot of issues by summer slam, and Bret and HBK could have exploded at any moment. Vince shouldn't have put the title on him. Bret also didn't originally refuse to lose to Shawn. He was willing to put Shawn over if Shawn put him over. HBK, who was hated by EVERYBODY, said he would never do the job for ANYONE again. Bret wasn't just refusing to do the job because of there issues. He was standing up for the locker room. Bret also gave Vince a list of every name on the roster except HBK and HHH, saying he would drop the title to any of them. Vince had options. He didn't have to put the belt on Bret. He didn't have to have HBK take the title from him. Hell he could have probably squashed the Bret/HBK issues in one meeting if he wanted to but didn't and the whole thing wouldn't have happened. Bret isn't totally blameless but I put more blame on Vince and HBK than Bret. Vince allowed the Bret - HBK feud to happen. it's been said by several people there during that time, including Bret, that Vince knew there were issues, but for whatever reason would absolutely NEVER say "No" to Shawn. Hell, right after the infamous July Locker Room Incident, Vince told Bret he KNEW something like that was going to happen, because Shawn had told him the week before that the next time Shawn saw Bret he was going to attack him! an employee told his boss he was going to assault another employee a week before he planned to do it! think about that! yet Vince did nothing to stop it. Vince used the real-life hatred between the 2 for ratings, pure and simple. Yep. Like I said Vince could have stoped it. For whatever reason he didn't. Had he pulled both into a meeting around SummerSlam and put an end to there issues I don't think the Screwjob would have happened. The issue though is that the Mr. McMahon character would have never been born. |
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 30, 2015 19:02:06 GMT -5
At the end of the day everyone of them is in the wrong in some capacity, but Vince and Shawn agreed to something and then ed Bret Hart over. I do not buy the whole Bret Hart showing up in WCW with the belt can anyone honestly say they think, Bret Hart would have done this? Vince and Shawn wanted to stick it to Bret Hart and that is exactly what they did. I love Shawn Michaels, consider him to be the greatest in ring performer of all time, but back then he was a real slimy, horrible person. How many people from that era have a good thing to say about Shawn Michaels as a person or a work colleague? Still though this whole situation made for an amazing documentary. I agree everyone was wrong in the situation but I hate how people act like Bret was just so innocent. Bret was wrong for not doing what was told of him. Vince was wrong for not coming to Bret and saying "Do it or else" and HBK/HHH were wrong for coming up with the whole scheme. |
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Post by Captain McKay on Aug 31, 2015 17:05:04 GMT -5
I agree everyone was wrong in the situation but I hate how people act like Bret was just so innocent. Bret was wrong for not doing what was told of him. Vince was wrong for not coming to Bret and saying "Do it or else" and HBK/HHH were wrong for coming up with the whole scheme. I wouldn't call Hart "innocent," but he was responding to Michaels' backstage di ckery by exercising his contractual right to creative control. In my mind, that may not be the "right" thing to do, but in the scheme of things, it was legal and (probably) justified. Especially compared to what ACTUALLY happened at the event. So, yes. Everyone was to blame to some degree, but Bret Hart (in my view) carries the least amount of blame. Again, the biggest problem lies with McMahon not taking the belt from Bret weeks or months earlier. |
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Post by PJ on Aug 31, 2015 20:18:02 GMT -5
Is this documentary on DVD in the USA? I read on IMDB that the UK has it on DVD I think it was. I am pretty sure I saw it someplace. Best Buy or FYE I think? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 10:28:09 GMT -5
Nobody can seriously say Vince didn't know he was going push Bret out 3 months after putting the title on him. Bret and Vince were having a lot of issues by summer slam, and Bret and HBK could have exploded at any moment. Vince shouldn't have put the title on him. Bret also didn't originally refuse to lose to Shawn. He was willing to put Shawn over if Shawn put him over. HBK, who was hated by EVERYBODY, said he would never do the job for ANYONE again. Bret wasn't just refusing to do the job because of there issues. He was standing up for the locker room. Bret also gave Vince a list of every name on the roster except HBK and HHH, saying he would drop the title to any of them. Vince had options. He didn't have to put the belt on Bret. He didn't have to have HBK take the title from him. Hell he could have probably squashed the Bret/HBK issues in one meeting if he wanted to but didn't and the whole thing wouldn't have happened. Bret isn't totally blameless but I put more blame on Vince and HBK than Bret. Vince allowed the Bret - HBK feud to happen. it's been said by several people there during that time, including Bret, that Vince knew there were issues, but for whatever reason would absolutely NEVER say "No" to Shawn. Hell, right after the infamous July Locker Room Incident, Vince told Bret he KNEW something like that was going to happen, because Shawn had told him the week before that the next time Shawn saw Bret he was going to attack him! an employee told his boss he was going to assault another employee a week before he planned to do it! think about that! yet Vince did nothing to stop it. Vince used the real-life hatred between the 2 for ratings, pure and simple. SO MANY folks(that were there at the time)on shoots have said Vince fanned the flames of hatred between the two......LOD, King, Prichard, Goldust, Paul Bearer, Ken Shamrock, Honky, NAO, Harris brothers etc etc etc. they couldn't all be wrong. |
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Post by Brad on Sept 1, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5
One of the best wrestling-related documentaries ever. It may be THE best |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 8:36:49 GMT -5
Can we just talk about how great that match was itself? Regardless of the screwjob, that match was fantastic.
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Post by PJ on Oct 13, 2017 9:42:05 GMT -5
Come on this topic was 3 years old. If it’s not on the first page do not bump it.
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