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Post by Yambag Jones on Jun 29, 2020 12:04:48 GMT -5
if it wasnt a work, i put blame on both vince/bret equally! despite creative control, EVERY other champ did the job before they left inc hogan/diesel etc! if wrestling is his life and cares SOOOO much about it, you honor the tradition. on other hand, since bret/shawn had issues and bret was willing to drop belt to ANYONE else, vince shoulda just picked another guy for the night! Vince screwed Bret and wouldn't shoulder the responsibility afterwards. I'm still shocked he didn't try to cater to Hart and have him drop the title to Undertaker instead of HBK. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 14:57:17 GMT -5
if it wasnt a work, i put blame on both vince/bret equally! despite creative control, EVERY other champ did the job before they left inc hogan/diesel etc! if wrestling is his life and cares SOOOO much about it, you honor the tradition. on other hand, since bret/shawn had issues and bret was willing to drop belt to ANYONE else, vince shoulda just picked another guy for the night! Vince screwed Bret and wouldn't shoulder the responsibility afterwards. I'm still shocked he didn't try to cater to Hart and have him drop the title to Undertaker instead of HBK. Bret was pushing for Taker or Shamrock. |
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Post by Yambag Jones on Jun 29, 2020 15:01:22 GMT -5
Vince screwed Bret and wouldn't shoulder the responsibility afterwards. I'm still shocked he didn't try to cater to Hart and have him drop the title to Undertaker instead of HBK. Bret was pushing for Taker or Shamrock. Shamrock would have been interesting. I've never heard that... |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jun 29, 2020 18:35:16 GMT -5
Bret states in his book that his WWE contract didn't expire until the middle of December. He was supposed to wrestle on the Dec. In Your House PPV show. It's why Bret didn't show up to WCW until December too.
So why was Vince in such demand to take the belt off Bret at Survivor Series?? He had four or five more weeks to do whatever. I don't know, still screams work to me and always will.
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Post by bWo on Jun 29, 2020 18:56:43 GMT -5
Vince has taken some very physical, very dangerous punishment as Mr. McMahon. Chair shots, tables, flying off cages. He didn't duck the pain. He let Kevin Owens BLAST HIM with that headbutt a few years back that busted him open and made it look like something was trying to grow out of his head. I bring that up because if it WAS A WORK, he would have no problem letting Bret punch him square in the face to "sell the anger" after the match and during the documentary.
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Post by MKSavage on Jun 30, 2020 6:42:13 GMT -5
if it wasnt a work, i put blame on both vince/bret equally! despite creative control, EVERY other champ did the job before they left inc hogan/diesel etc! if wrestling is his life and cares SOOOO much about it, you honor the tradition. on other hand, since bret/shawn had issues and bret was willing to drop belt to ANYONE else, vince shoulda just picked another guy for the night! Vince screwed Bret and wouldn't shoulder the responsibility afterwards. I'm still shocked he didn't try to cater to Hart and have him drop the title to Undertaker instead of HBK. To me, with all that was going on at the time, having Hart drop the belt to the Undertaker would have made the most sense. Bret drops the belt to Undertaker around Survivor Series or even on a Raw in December, Shawn and Shamrock still meet at IYH D-X only this time it's a number one contenders match with Shawn winning. Shawn then wrestles Taker at RR98 (which they did anyway) this time with Taker as the Champion. Shawn wins the belt that night in the same way. Then Shawn drops the belt to Austin at WM14. You still would have gotten the same outcome in the end with Shawn dropping the belt to Austin to start the new era. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 15:45:05 GMT -5
Absolutely
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Post by rowdy1971 on Jun 30, 2020 15:52:23 GMT -5
Bret has always considered himself the greatest wrestler of all time, obviously his family had their roots in the business, Bret always considered himself a professional, and whatever accolades and whatnot you want to add. With that being said, Bret should have done business the way it should be and drop the belt on the way out and then never look back and cash those big ass checks. Now that's if the plan all along was to screw Bret. I believe that he and Vince planned the whole thing. Vince couldn't pay out the contract so he gave Bret the greatest angle anyone could have going into a new organization. If anything, WCW screwed Bret, and they screwed him BAD! The hissy fit Bret threw, the cameras all over the place getting back stage stuff, all that and more leads me to believe that Vince and Bret worked everyone.
But hell, it was 23 years ago. Elsa this thing and LET IT GO! lol
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Post by bWo on Jun 30, 2020 15:54:49 GMT -5
The problem with having Bret drop the strap to Taker is you are pissing on Shawn Michaels. You want him to hold THE BELT and be THE GUY........ But you’ll chose to accommodate the feelings of the guy LEAVING THE COMPANY and side with him over Michaels. That would piss Shawn off, especially the egomaniac Shawn that existed back then.
You can’t do that. If the champ is leaving he drops the belt to the next in line. Bret acts like such a wrestling traditionalist, yet wanted to circumvent that tradition to suit his own plans. That’s bulliChocolate Shark. Brett screwed Brett.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 17:08:53 GMT -5
Bret states in his book that his WWE contract didn't expire until the middle of December. He was supposed to wrestle on the Dec. In Your House PPV show. It's why Bret didn't show up to WCW until December too. So why was Vince in such demand to take the belt off Bret at Survivor Series?? He had four or five more weeks to do whatever. I don't know, still screams work to me and always will. I also think he said he actually signed with wcw a couple of days before survivor series so even if he could have stayed until December, Vince didn’t want Eric telling the wcw audience that they signed WWF champ Bret Hart. It’s an ego and pride thing. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jun 30, 2020 17:40:02 GMT -5
Bret states in his book that his WWE contract didn't expire until the middle of December. He was supposed to wrestle on the Dec. In Your House PPV show. It's why Bret didn't show up to WCW until December too. So why was Vince in such demand to take the belt off Bret at Survivor Series?? He had four or five more weeks to do whatever. I don't know, still screams work to me and always will. I also think he said he actually signed with wcw a couple of days before survivor series so even if he could have stayed until December, Vince didn’t want Eric telling the wcw audience that they signed WWF champ Bret Hart. It’s an ego and pride thing.
How can you sign a contract to another company while still being signed to the current company?? If that was the case, I would think a lot of those wrestlers in the WWF would have done that in 1996 and 1997 when WCW was winning the ratings war and paying out money for talent.
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Post by keegandimitrijevic01 on Jun 30, 2020 17:42:15 GMT -5
Both Vince and Bret screwed each other.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jun 30, 2020 18:58:38 GMT -5
Both Vince and Bret screwed each other.
Kinky!! Ha ha ha
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rateddal
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Feb 22, 2019 21:36:45 GMT -5
Posts: 337
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Post by rateddal on Jun 30, 2020 20:18:53 GMT -5
It wasn't a work. I put more of the blame on Vince here to be honest. Vince puts the belt on Bret @sslam 97 despite knowing that he is going to have serious upcoming issues with him & that Taker vs HBK is his main feud moving into Winter...I mean WTF is he thinking here? At this point he knows he is going to back out of the contract and tell Bret to go to WCW but he still makes him champ? Vince's fears about the belt showing up on WCW are totally baseless. Turner executives would NEVER have allowed it and Bischoff wouldn't have done it. Turner was in sh*te up to their neck over the case with WWF concerning WWF property being on TV(womens belt) & Hall acting like Razor. Gerry McDevitt would have told Vince this... Vince's claims that he hadn't got the money to reatin Brets services were also baseless. look at the $$$ he splashed on Tyson. This is what happened....Vince was tired of Bret & high on his darling HBK. He seen more of a future in the soon to be DX (Correct decision) than Hart. he thought if he fed Bret a fable about being broke & told him to bounce to WCW with his permission to make the bug bucks for a few years then come home it would be all good. Of course in his heart he needed Bret to job to HBK on the way out....HBK was also likely in his ear about this amongst constant threats to take himself down south. When Hart didn't go along willingly 100% with everything? We got trouble....by the time of IYH Ground Zero the trouble had started in earnest after One Night Only & he had his chance there to get the title off Bret. Bad Blood came and went still no change..... IMO its all on Vince. Hart didnt want to drop to HBK & thats fine...Vince shouldnt have allowed it to go into that 30 days. arrogance.... I think it made tons of sense to put the belt on Bret at SS 97. The Canada-USA angle was still hot, opening opportunity for many feuds for Bret. Just a month later you see him defending against The Patriot and it didn't seem below title shot standards because of the USA-Canada angle. Shawn and Taker didn't need the belt involved to Main Event. |
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Post by JokerFC on Jul 1, 2020 12:43:43 GMT -5
It wasn't a work. I put more of the blame on Vince here to be honest. Vince puts the belt on Bret @sslam 97 despite knowing that he is going to have serious upcoming issues with him & that Taker vs HBK is his main feud moving into Winter...I mean WTF is he thinking here? At this point he knows he is going to back out of the contract and tell Bret to go to WCW but he still makes him champ? Vince's fears about the belt showing up on WCW are totally baseless. Turner executives would NEVER have allowed it and Bischoff wouldn't have done it. Turner was in sh*te up to their neck over the case with WWF concerning WWF property being on TV(womens belt) & Hall acting like Razor. Gerry McDevitt would have told Vince this... Vince's claims that he hadn't got the money to reatin Brets services were also baseless. look at the $$$ he splashed on Tyson. This is what happened....Vince was tired of Bret & high on his darling HBK. He seen more of a future in the soon to be DX (Correct decision) than Hart. he thought if he fed Bret a fable about being broke & told him to bounce to WCW with his permission to make the bug bucks for a few years then come home it would be all good. Of course in his heart he needed Bret to job to HBK on the way out....HBK was also likely in his ear about this amongst constant threats to take himself down south. When Hart didn't go along willingly 100% with everything? We got trouble....by the time of IYH Ground Zero the trouble had started in earnest after One Night Only & he had his chance there to get the title off Bret. Bad Blood came and went still no change..... IMO its all on Vince. Hart didnt want to drop to HBK & thats fine...Vince shouldnt have allowed it to go into that 30 days. arrogance.... I think it made tons of sense to put the belt on Bret at SS 97. The Canada-USA angle was still hot, opening opportunity for many feuds for Bret. Just a month later you see him defending against The Patriot and it didn't seem below title shot standards because of the USA-Canada angle. Shawn and Taker didn't need the belt involved to Main Event. the Hart Foundation Angle was that hot it didnt need Bret as the world champion either...particularly when Vince knew then he was gonna can him. Did the flag match at IYH: Bad Blood need the strap? Nah. HIAC didn't either mind you...but it would have made more sense in fairness. |
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Post by warriorlynx on Jul 1, 2020 13:14:33 GMT -5
Bret screwed Bret.
- Negotiated with WCW in 1996 so he could get a better deal from WWF
- Bret knew WWF didn't have a whole lot of money or deep pockets since business wasn't good
- Vince was hesitant but was pressured by those close to him to offer Bret a huge 20 year deal
- Bret signs deal with creative control, Bret didn't really want to go heel but agreed anyway, he even won the WWF title twice in 97
- Vince tells Bret he can't afford him and would even help him to get to WCW, Bret took it WAY too personally, could've negotiated a new deal
- Whined about not losing WWF title in Canada
- Could've dropped the strap to Ken Shamrock on RAW 21.10.97 in the United States when he had the chance even if not clean
- Bret knew Vince McMahon well enough to know he could screw him
- Montreal Screwjob
- Bret doesn't exercise his creative control clause to sue Vince, screws himself over a second time
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Post by hbkjason on Jul 2, 2020 5:15:05 GMT -5
I really do not think Bret Hart did anything wrong.
I love Shawn Michaels, but the majority of this situation was all about him wanting to stick it to Bret and he did just that. Even though he is the greatest in ring performer of all time, has there ever been a more unprofessional main event talent than Shawn Michaels during this time? Has anyone else lost more titles without getting their shoulders pinned than he has?
Of course, it all could have been avoided had they got the title off Bret sooner! Vince made Bret Hart various promises and pretty much broke them all. I really do not think Bret Hart would have shown up on WCW TV with the belt even if he had it.
Vince clearly had Shawn and probably HHH in his ear which is what really made him do what he did.
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Post by greenjack1992 on Jul 2, 2020 6:56:21 GMT -5
Yeah.
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Post by LK3 on Jul 5, 2020 3:44:44 GMT -5
Of course he did.
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Warriah'
Main Eventer
Joined on: Dec 22, 2019 19:46:02 GMT -5
Posts: 3,261
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Post by Warriah' on Jul 11, 2020 17:29:31 GMT -5
It wasn't a work. I put more of the blame on Vince here to be honest. Vince puts the belt on Bret @sslam 97 despite knowing that he is going to have serious upcoming issues with him & that Taker vs HBK is his main feud moving into Winter...I mean WTF is he thinking here? At this point he knows he is going to back out of the contract and tell Bret to go to WCW but he still makes him champ? Vince's fears about the belt showing up on WCW are totally baseless. Turner executives would NEVER have allowed it and Bischoff wouldn't have done it. Turner was in sh*te up to their neck over the case with WWF concerning WWF property being on TV(womens belt) & Hall acting like Razor. Gerry McDevitt would have told Vince this... Vince's claims that he hadn't got the money to reatin Brets services were also baseless. look at the $$$ he splashed on Tyson. This is what happened....Vince was tired of Bret & high on his darling HBK. He seen more of a future in the soon to be DX (Correct decision) than Hart. he thought if he fed Bret a fable about being broke & told him to bounce to WCW with his permission to make the bug bucks for a few years then come home it would be all good. Of course in his heart he needed Bret to job to HBK on the way out....HBK was also likely in his ear about this amongst constant threats to take himself down south. When Hart didn't go along willingly 100% with everything? We got trouble....by the time of IYH Ground Zero the trouble had started in earnest after One Night Only & he had his chance there to get the title off Bret. Bad Blood came and went still no change..... IMO its all on Vince. Hart didnt want to drop to HBK & thats fine...Vince shouldnt have allowed it to go into that 30 days. arrogance.... All of this. Bret should have just dropped it to Shamrock, Vader or Undertaker so one of them could transition it to Shawn a week later. |
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