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Post by hbkjason on Sept 1, 2020 5:11:54 GMT -5
What If: Shawn Michaels Never Hit His Back On The Casket? Today we are looking at the 1998 Royal Rumble, the main event of Shawn Michaels vs The Undertaker brought to an end their feud while literally igniting the one between Undertaker and Kane. What most people talk about from this match is that brutal hit to the back Shawn Michaels took off the casket. This is what is regarded as the main thing that caused him to need all that time off. I know that he has been accused of faking injuries many times in his career, but I feel that at WrestleMania XIV, you can clearly see the pain he is in on his face, it is quite brutal to watch. Anyway, what if Shawn took that bump over the top rope, cleared the casket and the rest of the match went on as scheduled? Shawn Michaels comes out of Royal Rumble 1998, healthy (well physically healthy) how do you feel this changes things going forward. First of all, he is in the main event at No Way Out, but for me, the most interesting thing to think about is what comes after WrestleMania. Stone Cold Steve Austin was the guy there is no doubt about that, but how long until Shawn Michaels wanted his spot back. I feel that Vince back then was smart enough not to derail the Austin train for anything, but at the same time, no other talent appears to have been able to have a hold on him more than Shawn Michaels. As well as this, what happens to Triple H? Would the big thing to come out of WrestleMania XIV be a face, Shawn Michaels, taking on Triple H’s newly formed DX? Another thing to note is that The Rock and Shawn Michaels were said to not get along at all, would HBK being around have threatened The Rock’s rise to the top? From a personal point of view, I feel in the long run that back injury was a good thing, and probably having all that time off was what saved his life when you think about it. However, you do have to wonder how a physically fit Shawn Michaels would have fitted into the WWF during 1998 and 1999, I feel him being around would have created a massive ripple effect for many other wrestlers at the time. As always, I would love to read your thoughts below. |
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 1, 2020 5:52:40 GMT -5
Great stuff man....
A lot of this was actually mapped out & Vince had already recognised the value of DX as a face faction. The only person they were getting audibly booed against was Austin. HBK & HHH were VERY loud about wanting the Outlaws in DX and Vince agreed but he said it would need to wait until after WM. With the whole Tyson thing going on? He felt that it would be a "2 many cooks" situation(he was right). The nly thing that seems to feel murky was whether HBK & DX were going to turn face after HBK & Austin had a rematch in April or straight after WM. Waltman was returning and was 100% coming in too.
I feel that HBKs dickhead character as a face would have been a riot in 1998 vs whoever. BUT it would have knocked HHH & Rock back a step. Nation vs DX with both men at the helm in Summer 1998 was CRUCIAL to their character getting over with the crowd and cementing their place as ME calibre talent.
When you look at summer 98 its hard to see how HBK would have fit in....but I guarantee he wouldnt have been left out. I personally think you would have seen HHH betray DX much quicker and go heel to feud with Shawn. HBK would have wanted to keep his buddy in the limelight....and that would have cemented his rise to a ME guy too.
Its hard to see anyone hurting the Rock...he was on a trajectory the moment he turned heel. It may have taken him a little bit longer? but he would have got there.
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Post by hbkjason on Sept 1, 2020 10:55:17 GMT -5
Great stuff man.... A lot of this was actually mapped out & Vince had already recognised the value of DX as a face faction. The only person they were getting audibly booed against was Austin. HBK & HHH were VERY loud about wanting the Outlaws in DX and Vince agreed but he said it would need to wait until after WM. With the whole Tyson thing going on? He felt that it would be a "2 many cooks" situation(he was right). The nly thing that seems to feel murky was whether HBK & DX were going to turn face after HBK & Austin had a rematch in April or straight after WM. Waltman was returning and was 100% coming in too. I feel that HBKs dickhead character as a face would have been a riot in 1998 vs whoever. BUT it would have knocked HHH & Rock back a step. Nation vs DX with both men at the helm in Summer 1998 was CRUCIAL to their character getting over with the crowd and cementing their place as ME calibre talent. When you look at summer 98 its hard to see how HBK would have fit in....but I guarantee he wouldnt have been left out. I personally think you would have seen HHH betray DX much quicker and go heel to feud with Shawn. HBK would have wanted to keep his buddy in the limelight....and that would have cemented his rise to a ME guy too. Its hard to see anyone hurting the Rock...he was on a trajectory the moment he turned heel. It may have taken him a little bit longer? but he would have got there. Some great insight there man, Do you still think if Shawn Michaels is around that come the end of 1999, Triple H is the WWF Champion? |
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Post by The Brain on Sept 1, 2020 13:02:47 GMT -5
A feud with Trips wouldve been inevitable.Probably not right away as they would be faces in DX causing problems for not only the Nation but Vince as well on TV. Mania XV seems like a good time to have the showdown between the two.Have Trips turn heel in either late 98 or early 99 with him wrecking Shawn and go from there.Have it be like the turn in 02 with them in the ring doing their usual shtick when bam pedigree!  |
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Post by MKSavage on Sept 1, 2020 13:35:39 GMT -5
Have to agree with The Brain, I think a feud between Shawn and Hunter would have been inevitable, either with Triple H turning heel at the end of 1998 and having a generic good guy/bad guy feud. Or, for most of 1998, have Shawn and Hunter sparring over who is the true leader of DX with a match at WM15 to determine it. However, I still see Shawn causing problems at this time for some of the up-and-coming stars that weren't his close friends. The best thing for the attitude era may have been Shawn not being around. Sometimes it is best for the old guard to go away for a while so the new guard has time to shine. |
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Sept 1, 2020 18:51:01 GMT -5
1998 would've been hard to imagine with an active Shawn Michaels. Everything had slotted in perfectly for the stars and if HBK was around things would've been unsettled.
The Outlaws and X-Pac were still joining whether he was around or not, but in 98, DX slotted into the uppercard scene with their feud with the Nation and it was the perfect spot for them at the time.
Had Shawn been around he would've been demanding the main event scene which would effect Taker, Kane, Foley, Rock.
He would also have done everything in his power to stop Rock from becoming champ and Foley may never have had his epic moment in January 99.
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Post by K5 on Sept 1, 2020 23:04:08 GMT -5
michael's back injury was about as legit as his knee injuries
McMahon paid him to stay home so he wouldn't go to WCW when he was too pilled out to work. then when WCW dies and Vince doesn't need to pay Michaels, he suddenly makes a rapid recovery and is jumping off ladders and doing moonsaults to the outside
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2020 23:08:56 GMT -5
michael's back injury was about as legit as his knee injuries McMahon paid him to stay home so he wouldn't go to WCW when he was too pilled out to work. then when WCW dies and Vince doesn't need to pay Michaels, he suddenly makes a rapid recovery and is jumping off ladders and doing moonsaults to the outside HBK has a surgery scar on his lower back, though. |
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Post by K5 on Sept 1, 2020 23:10:28 GMT -5
michael's back injury was about as legit as his knee injuries McMahon paid him to stay home so he wouldn't go to WCW when he was too pilled out to work. then when WCW dies and Vince doesn't need to pay Michaels, he suddenly makes a rapid recovery and is jumping off ladders and doing moonsaults to the outside HBK has a surgery scar on his lower back, though. he has bad knees too. but none of it was career ending. his drug use on the other hand... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2020 23:13:44 GMT -5
HBK has a surgery scar on his lower back, though. he has bad knees too. but none of it was career ending. his drug use on the other hand... oh no doubt. I initially read your post in way that made it seem like you were doubting his surgery. Yeah he was waaaaay off the wagon at this point. Probably a good thing he stayed home because he was heading for a toe tag. |
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 2, 2020 1:40:44 GMT -5
michael's back injury was about as legit as his knee injuries McMahon paid him to stay home so he wouldn't go to WCW when he was too pilled out to work. then when WCW dies and Vince doesn't need to pay Michaels, he suddenly makes a rapid recovery and is jumping off ladders and doing moonsaults to the outside Uh...there was nothing rapid about it. Some of the promo comments by DX ("You dropped the ball") suggest that the WWF expected him to be back within a reasonable amount of time and feud with that faction, not be gone for 4 years. Moreover, while it's true that he took calculated bumps when he returned, it's still obvious that both he and his opponents were modifying moves to protect his back in '02 and '03. There's also a backstage interview of him after WM 19 where his lower torso is wrapped with ice on it and he's in some discomfort. I don't know if that was on the DVD or a later program, but it was proof that his back still wasn't 100%, if it ever got back to 100%, in 2003. Also, here's a quote from Michaels' surgeon in the San Antonio Express: linkIn fact, his surgeon was quoted in several non-wrestling newspapers at the time, so that's proof positive that the severity of the back injury wasn't a work. His drug abuse certainly made it worse, and that just makes him all the more lucky that he was able to resume wrestling at all. |
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 2, 2020 5:07:04 GMT -5
Great stuff man.... A lot of this was actually mapped out & Vince had already recognised the value of DX as a face faction. The only person they were getting audibly booed against was Austin. HBK & HHH were VERY loud about wanting the Outlaws in DX and Vince agreed but he said it would need to wait until after WM. With the whole Tyson thing going on? He felt that it would be a "2 many cooks" situation(he was right). The nly thing that seems to feel murky was whether HBK & DX were going to turn face after HBK & Austin had a rematch in April or straight after WM. Waltman was returning and was 100% coming in too. I feel that HBKs dickhead character as a face would have been a riot in 1998 vs whoever. BUT it would have knocked HHH & Rock back a step. Nation vs DX with both men at the helm in Summer 1998 was CRUCIAL to their character getting over with the crowd and cementing their place as ME calibre talent. When you look at summer 98 its hard to see how HBK would have fit in....but I guarantee he wouldnt have been left out. I personally think you would have seen HHH betray DX much quicker and go heel to feud with Shawn. HBK would have wanted to keep his buddy in the limelight....and that would have cemented his rise to a ME guy too. Its hard to see anyone hurting the Rock...he was on a trajectory the moment he turned heel. It may have taken him a little bit longer? but he would have got there. Some great insight there man, Do you still think if Shawn Michaels is around that come the end of 1999, Triple H is the WWF Champion? Id say that's even more likely man But I feel it would have been before. Lots of folks have said that HHH & the Rock were under consideration for the Corporate champ role by Vince. But then HHH got injured @ SSlam 98....& Rock was turned face only to go heel @ SSeries 98. all this makes me think that face HHH was gonna be the guy @ SSeries to turn heel. When he got injured they stuck with the plan...just seperated Rock from NOD, turned him face and slotted him into HHHs position. I feel Foley is the guy that gets the shaft if HBK stays around...I see the tourney final being face HHH vs Heel Rock and a double switch occurring. |
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Post by K5 on Sept 2, 2020 8:11:02 GMT -5
michael's back injury was about as legit as his knee injuries McMahon paid him to stay home so he wouldn't go to WCW when he was too pilled out to work. then when WCW dies and Vince doesn't need to pay Michaels, he suddenly makes a rapid recovery and is jumping off ladders and doing moonsaults to the outside Uh...there was nothing rapid about it. Some of the promo comments by DX ("You dropped the ball") suggest that the WWF expected him to be back within a reasonable amount of time and feud with that faction, not be gone for 4 years. Moreover, while it's true that he took calculated bumps when he returned, it's still obvious that both he and his opponents were modifying moves to protect his back in '02 and '03. There's also a backstage interview of him after WM 19 where his lower torso is wrapped with ice on it and he's in some discomfort. I don't know if that was on the DVD or a later program, but it was proof that his back still wasn't 100%, if it ever got back to 100%, in 2003. Also, here's a quote from Michaels' surgeon in the San Antonio Express: linkIn fact, his surgeon was quoted in several non-wrestling newspapers at the time, so that's proof positive that the severity of the back injury wasn't a work. His drug abuse certainly made it worse, and that just makes him all the more lucky that he was able to resume wrestling at all. sorry, but I'm going to believe Jim Cornette's and other's take on this over Michael's and WWE's narrative, both known to lie. he legit hurt his back for sure. and doctors are known to retire anyone with any type of back injury. but that doesn't change the fact that from 99-2000 he'd show up too pilled out to fulfill his duty as commissioner and would just drug ramble out there...Vince knew better than to bring him back. he was supposed to be ready for wm17, but was too much of a liability still. but the extent of it was exaggerated on his part. guy was wrestling in his own company during those years and training people, wasn't exactly bed ridden, and had chosen drugs over his career. then he comes back to doing elbow drops off ladders and moonsaults. anyone with an understanding of compromising chronic back injuries could see what was up pretty quick.. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Sept 2, 2020 11:06:14 GMT -5
Don't forget people, Shawn Michaels wrestled for his Texas Wrestling Alliance company and was doing just fine in the match in the year 2000. He was bumping, and doing everything he normally did.
Shawn Michaels was a drug addict. It was easier for Vince to pay him to stay at home for years, instead of let him go to WCW and watch Shawn become another statistic of being a wrestler dying of a drug overdose.
If HBK had remained pill free in 1998, he would have done one of two things. He would have either held down Rock and Triple H from getting that top spot, because Shawn still would have felt he deserved it, and if that wasn't gonna happen, Shawn would have done everything to get out of his WWF contract to go be with Nash and Hall.
The 1995 - 1998 era of Shawn Michaels as a wrestler was very self serving, selfish, and just plain horrible. He would have done anything and everything to be the man. I remember a story where Diesel joked with him saying they were putting the belt back on him over Bret at In Your House Rage in the Cage and HBK freaked out on Diesel. Telling him off, saying Vince promised him that WWF Title spot and such. Diesel just laughed and said, "calm down, Shawn, I was just joking with you. You're getting the strap at Mania."
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Post by HandsomeHollywood on Sept 2, 2020 11:17:08 GMT -5
Michaels would have left anyway. The tide has turned lately on his back injury with the advent of many shoot series.
Cornette has a lot of evidence and stories where he believes Shawn Michaels was perfectly fine and left due to "personal reasons". Others have gone as far as to allege he only returned when he did because his contract was up and he was going to stop being paid.
Around this time Michaels left to find his smile rather than put over Bret Hart at Mania 13, helped bury Bulldog to take a meaningless title from him, screwed Bret, buried Owen and tried to get out of putting over Austin. I think he had enough of trying to have things his way all the time and saw the writing on the wall that was Austin's unavoidable star on the rise and bailed.
With or without the footage of him hitting the casket he was going to leave. There only so much you can look at a mass of billowing smoke and not assume there's fire.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Sept 2, 2020 13:56:56 GMT -5
Stories I have heard about Shawn when it comes to losing a title to a fake injury are as follows....
Shane Douglas talks about how the day he was supposed to be Shawn at In Your House for the IC Title, that Shawn was joking with him and looked fine. Shawn then tell Shane he has to go into make up so they part ways. Next time Shane sees Shawn is when he is coming out to give up the IC Title and he has all these bruises and such on his face that apparently to Shane Douglas were not there before. Now, I know Shane talks a lot, but I never have known Shane to bullcrap a story.
I also heard that when Shawn returned to Raw in the summer 1998 he was doing back hand springs and such in the back. It was X-Pac who said that in a shoot. So Pac went up to Triple H I think it was and said, "wasn't his back so bad he couldn't do things like this anymore??" and whoever it was, like I said, I think it was Triple H, said, "ha ha ha yeah... riiiight" and walked off.
So as much as I love Shawn Michaels and am a fan of his work from that era, I also know how big of a piece of crap he was.
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Post by MKSavage on Sept 2, 2020 14:24:03 GMT -5
Stories I have heard about Shawn when it comes to losing a title to a fake injury are as follows.... Shane Douglas talks about how the day he was supposed to be Shawn at In Your House for the IC Title, that Shawn was joking with him and looked fine. Shawn then tell Shane he has to go into make up so they part ways. Next time Shane sees Shawn is when he is coming out to give up the IC Title and he has all these bruises and such on his face that apparently to Shane Douglas were not there before. Now, I know Shane talks a lot, but I never have known Shane to bullcrap a story. I also heard that when Shawn returned to Raw in the summer 1998 he was doing back hand springs and such in the back. It was X-Pac who said that in a shoot. So Pac went up to Triple H I think it was and said, "wasn't his back so bad he couldn't do things like this anymore??" and whoever it was, like I said, I think it was Triple H, said, "ha ha ha yeah... riiiight" and walked off. So as much as I love Shawn Michaels and am a fan of his work from that era, I also know how big of a piece of crap he was. You forgot about the one of him giving up the WWF title in 1997 instead of losing it to Bret at WM13. I remember reading that Bret said that people actually thought that he really was injured but them he came back to Raw like a month later and did a back flip off the top turnbuckle. Bret said when he saw that he knew Shawn was faking it and just didn't want to drop the belt to him. I can't remember who said it, it may have been Jericho, but he said that Shawn has forfeited the titles more times than he actually lost them (by being beaten in the ring). |
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Post by whydontyoutellme on Sept 2, 2020 15:23:36 GMT -5
He would have ended up missing significant time due to other issues regardless of the back issue. Really hard to imagine that he wouldn't have dipped his toe in the WCW waters at some point if he was perfectly healthy. It would be interesting to see how he would have done around the top of the WWF card with Austin and Rock not being fond of him.
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Post by jason88cubs on Sept 2, 2020 18:27:05 GMT -5
He would have gotten mad Stone Cold was the project now, he would left and went to WCW and caused havoc
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Post by K5 on Sept 2, 2020 20:32:51 GMT -5
for better and for worse, Shawn Michaels was the Axl Rose of the WWF.
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