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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 3, 2020 0:51:11 GMT -5
Uh...there was nothing rapid about it. Some of the promo comments by DX ("You dropped the ball") suggest that the WWF expected him to be back within a reasonable amount of time and feud with that faction, not be gone for 4 years. Moreover, while it's true that he took calculated bumps when he returned, it's still obvious that both he and his opponents were modifying moves to protect his back in '02 and '03. There's also a backstage interview of him after WM 19 where his lower torso is wrapped with ice on it and he's in some discomfort. I don't know if that was on the DVD or a later program, but it was proof that his back still wasn't 100%, if it ever got back to 100%, in 2003. Also, here's a quote from Michaels' surgeon in the San Antonio Express: linkIn fact, his surgeon was quoted in several non-wrestling newspapers at the time, so that's proof positive that the severity of the back injury wasn't a work. His drug abuse certainly made it worse, and that just makes him all the more lucky that he was able to resume wrestling at all. sorry, but I'm going to believe Jim Cornette's and other's take on this over Michael's and WWE's narrative, both known to lie. he legit hurt his back for sure. and doctors are known to retire anyone with any type of back injury. but that doesn't change the fact that from 99-2000 he'd show up too pilled out to fulfill his duty as commissioner and would just drug ramble out there...Vince knew better than to bring him back. he was supposed to be ready for wm17, but was too much of a liability still. but the extent of it was exaggerated on his part. guy was wrestling in his own company during those years and training people, wasn't exactly bed ridden, and had chosen drugs over his career. then he comes back to doing elbow drops off ladders and moonsaults. anyone with an understanding of compromising chronic back injuries could see what was up pretty quick.. As much as I was a fan of Cornette as a performer, and I'm a regular listener to his podcast, his theory on Michaels' faking the injury is dubious. Cornette didn't like HBK, which is understandable. Michaels was strung out on numerous pills at the time. That's led to speculation based on emotion, and many other talents in the biz at the time have fallen prey to that. HBK wasn't well-liked, and that has led to conspiracy-theory type of thinking about the injury. But we have a documented surgery and a quote from a surgeon, whose specialized training makes his opinion on this issue more valid than all of the talents in the business. Michaels didn't want to job to certain people, he was addicted to somas, and he had a career-threatening injury. All of those things can coexist. And as someone who has dealt with numerous back injuries, it was apparent to me that post-2002 Michaels was protecting his back for many years. The videos that I've seen of him from his wrestling school, including his match in 2000, show a man who was very limited in his physical abilities. I have yet to see any evidence that Michaels injury wasn't as serious as advertised. His addictions just made the situation worse. |
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Post by hbkjason on Sept 3, 2020 3:54:44 GMT -5
Thanks for all the replies guys been very interesting to read all your thoughts.
One thing I have noticed is that people's opinions on Shawn Michaels the last couple of years really seem to be going on a downward slope. I consider him one of the greatest of all time (he would make my top 3, probably 1 or 2!) however, as much as I have enjoyed his work since 1989, as I get older I realize that while his in ring work was 99/100 steller, he was a very selfish performer that in reality could have done so much more for more people if he had wanted to.
I for one do believe that the back injury was legit. I do think he could have come back earlier had he been clean, but I still find watching that WrestleMania XIV match rather hard as you can clearly see the pain on his face.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 3, 2020 4:37:37 GMT -5
Thanks for all the replies guys been very interesting to read all your thoughts. One thing I have noticed is that people's opinions on Shawn Michaels the last couple of years really seem to be going on a downward slope. I consider him one of the greatest of all time (he would make my top 3, probably 1 or 2!) however, as much as I have enjoyed his work since 1989, as I get older I realize that while his in ring work was 99/100 steller, he was a very selfish performer that in reality could have done so much more for more people if he had wanted to. I for one do believe that the back injury was legit. I do think he could have come back earlier had he been clean, but I still find watching that WrestleMania XIV match rather hard as you can clearly see the pain on his face. Peak-era Shawn Michaels was arrogant behind the scenes and manipulative. Then again, so were most of the top talents who have come through the biz over the last 30 years. They each wanted to be #1, and if that meant doing some backstage politicking, they did it. Shawn was no different, he was just the one who had Vince's ear in the mid-90s. That being said, post 2002 HBK was almost the opposite of that. He didn't want either world title, and he had no problem in losing feuds, sometimes to a fault. He even lost matches that he had no business losing, like Daivari. I actually found this more annoying than his previous personality conflicts prior to 1998. He should have been in more main-event programs than he was between late 2002 and 2010. As much as I admire Shawn's work, it got to the point to where any storyline that involved him chasing a title lacked drama. He would either get stopped before his title match or he'd lose, and that got old. Moreover, when he and Trips were teaming, he was almost always the one who took the loss when some other team went over DX. That got old. |
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 3, 2020 5:37:47 GMT -5
some fantastic posts in this discussion....really & truly.
for the record? I believe the back injury was legit...but it wasn't 4 years on the shelf legit or anything like that. He was probably good to go by fall 1998.
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Post by keegandimitrijevic01 on Sept 3, 2020 6:16:11 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I think he would have passed away if he did not have that time off. He was already in rough shape before the back injury. However, if he cleaned himself up prior to the back injury, I say the following would have happened:
Feud with Austin and Mankind for the rest of 1998
Split from DX in 1999 and feud with Triple H at WrestleMania XV, followed by The Undertaker and Ken Shamrock
A feud with The Rock in 2000 (Vince would have convinced them both to do it). WrestleMania 2000 against The Rock
Feuds with Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, and "Stone Cold" Steve Austin again in 2001. Shawn is the "Hero" for the WWE against The Alliance. Shawn faces Benoit at X-Seven
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Post by keegandimitrijevic01 on Sept 3, 2020 6:17:19 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I think he would have passed away if he did not have that time off. He was already in rough shape before the back injury. However, if he cleaned himself up prior to the back injury, I say the following would have happened: Feud with Austin and Mankind for the rest of 1998 Split from DX in 1999 and feud with Triple H at WrestleMania XV, followed by The Undertaker and Ken Shamrock A feud with The Rock in 2000 (Vince would have convinced them both to do it). WrestleMania 2000 against The Rock Feuds with Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, and "Stone Cold" Steve Austin again in 2001. Shawn is the "Hero" for the WWE against The Alliance. Shawn faces Benoit at X-Seven In reality, he probably could have been back wrestling by 1999 or 2000, but it was smart for him to take a break |
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Post by keegandimitrijevic01 on Sept 3, 2020 6:19:57 GMT -5
michael's back injury was about as legit as his knee injuries McMahon paid him to stay home so he wouldn't go to WCW when he was too pilled out to work. then when WCW dies and Vince doesn't need to pay Michaels, he suddenly makes a rapid recovery and is jumping off ladders and doing moonsaults to the outside Shawn was probably cleared by the latest, 2000 to wrestle. He probably could've been back by then, but I don't think Vince wanted to risk it because he was still on pills |
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Post by The Sexy Psychotic on Sept 3, 2020 6:54:31 GMT -5
I read a while back (of course rumour and innuendo) that the initial plans for WM15 was Michaels vs Trips.
He could have been back within the year, heck wasn't he penned for something to start at WMX7 till he showed up wasted?
Either way I think he would have taken time off no matter what, maybe not a year, but off till maybe SummerSlam or Survivor Series and pull a Hitman in 96; return to a big face turn.
Trips maybe turns heel joining the Corporation with Chyna and then bam, you have HBK/HHH at WMXV!
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Post by K5 on Sept 3, 2020 7:43:06 GMT -5
sorry, but I'm going to believe Jim Cornette's and other's take on this over Michael's and WWE's narrative, both known to lie. he legit hurt his back for sure. and doctors are known to retire anyone with any type of back injury. but that doesn't change the fact that from 99-2000 he'd show up too pilled out to fulfill his duty as commissioner and would just drug ramble out there...Vince knew better than to bring him back. he was supposed to be ready for wm17, but was too much of a liability still. but the extent of it was exaggerated on his part. guy was wrestling in his own company during those years and training people, wasn't exactly bed ridden, and had chosen drugs over his career. then he comes back to doing elbow drops off ladders and moonsaults. anyone with an understanding of compromising chronic back injuries could see what was up pretty quick.. As much as I was a fan of Cornette as a performer, and I'm a regular listener to his podcast, his theory on Michaels' faking the injury is dubious. Cornette didn't like HBK, which is understandable. Michaels was strung out on numerous pills at the time. That's led to speculation based on emotion, and many other talents in the biz at the time have fallen prey to that. HBK wasn't well-liked, and that has led to conspiracy-theory type of thinking about the injury. But we have a documented surgery and a quote from a surgeon, whose specialized training makes his opinion on this issue more valid than all of the talents in the business. Michaels didn't want to job to certain people, he was addicted to somas, and he had a career-threatening injury. All of those things can coexist. And as someone who has dealt with numerous back injuries, it was apparent to me that post-2002 Michaels was protecting his back for many years. The videos that I've seen of him from his wrestling school, including his match in 2000, show a man who was very limited in his physical abilities. I have yet to see any evidence that Michaels injury wasn't as serious as advertised. His addictions just made the situation worse. I don't think Cornette is speaking from emotion, I think he is speaking from direct knowledge. he cites specific stories. wmx7, showing up too  ed up for raw, other people have mentioned shoot interviews and other wrestlers... if you want to consider it conspiracy theory type thinking that's your choice, but it's far more plausible than some miraculous recovery that allowed him to go from critically injured to legitimately jumping off the top rope every single night of his return. he was injured, but the extent is very clearly exaggerated. it's not a coincidence that once his four year contract expired he's back in the action. |
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Post by Artie Kendall on Sept 3, 2020 8:18:08 GMT -5
I think a good comparison for the back injury is Mr. Perfect from summerslam with Bret. Michaels appears to be walking the same way in his match with Austin. Perfect took a year off after Hart so if they were about the same type (I know not all injuries are the same) Michaels could been out the same time.
I think one things for sure after Mania, Michaels doesn't wrestle for a while. I say this because in shoot interviews Nash mentioned that Michaels was like a school teacher always getting the summer off. Michaels also said that he pitched the Heartbreak Hotel as away to stay on TV without wrestling so that when he did wrestle it would be a big deal. I think with that in mind, I think Michaels becomes a mouth piece for DX and never wrestles. I think his antics eventually get to Triple H and Triple H turns on him.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 3, 2020 14:10:08 GMT -5
As much as I was a fan of Cornette as a performer, and I'm a regular listener to his podcast, his theory on Michaels' faking the injury is dubious. Cornette didn't like HBK, which is understandable. Michaels was strung out on numerous pills at the time. That's led to speculation based on emotion, and many other talents in the biz at the time have fallen prey to that. HBK wasn't well-liked, and that has led to conspiracy-theory type of thinking about the injury. But we have a documented surgery and a quote from a surgeon, whose specialized training makes his opinion on this issue more valid than all of the talents in the business. Michaels didn't want to job to certain people, he was addicted to somas, and he had a career-threatening injury. All of those things can coexist. And as someone who has dealt with numerous back injuries, it was apparent to me that post-2002 Michaels was protecting his back for many years. The videos that I've seen of him from his wrestling school, including his match in 2000, show a man who was very limited in his physical abilities. I have yet to see any evidence that Michaels injury wasn't as serious as advertised. His addictions just made the situation worse. I don't think Cornette is speaking from emotion, I think he is speaking from direct knowledge. he cites specific stories. wmx7, showing up too ed up for raw, other people have mentioned shoot interviews and other wrestlers... if you want to consider it conspiracy theory type thinking that's your choice, but it's far more plausible than some miraculous recovery that allowed him to go from critically injured to legitimately jumping off the top rope every single night of his return. he was injured, but the extent is very clearly exaggerated. it's not a coincidence that once his four year contract expired he's back in the action. The contract expiration is irrelevant. Michaels did make appearances in wrestling and on WWF programs during his non-wrestling period. There's no reason to believe that he had to wrestle going forward. He could have negotiated a non-wrestling role had he wanted. What's really plausible is that a surgeon actually knows his business. He went on record saying that HBK's career was in jeopardy. That man's medical expertise carries more weight than anyone's opinion, including Cornette's. Conclusions should be based on verifiable information, not supposition. |
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Post by K5 on Sept 3, 2020 14:44:49 GMT -5
I don't think Cornette is speaking from emotion, I think he is speaking from direct knowledge. he cites specific stories. wmx7, showing up too ed up for raw, other people have mentioned shoot interviews and other wrestlers... if you want to consider it conspiracy theory type thinking that's your choice, but it's far more plausible than some miraculous recovery that allowed him to go from critically injured to legitimately jumping off the top rope every single night of his return. he was injured, but the extent is very clearly exaggerated. it's not a coincidence that once his four year contract expired he's back in the action. The contract expiration is irrelevant. Michaels did make appearances in wrestling and on WWF programs during his non-wrestling period. There's no reason to believe that he had to wrestle going forward. He could have negotiated a non-wrestling role had he wanted. What's really plausible is that a surgeon actually knows his business. He went on record saying that HBK's career was in jeopardy. That man's medical expertise carries more weight than anyone's opinion, including Cornette's. Conclusions should be based on verifiable information, not supposition. you do know that doctors make incorrect assertions every single day? flair was never gonna wrestle again according to doctors after his airplane crash. in fact, the entire Lloyd's of London scheme is based on the premise that doctors were buying the wrestler's bull crap. we'll ignore that whole over prescribing of OxyContin by doctors leading to mass addiction and death... I get it, you're gonna not shift on your beliefs here, but the majority of us have and moved on. |
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Post by Nick the Quick on Sept 3, 2020 20:23:05 GMT -5
I’ve always looked at the back injury as a “blessing in disguise” situation. Shawn was able to turn his life around and change for the better during his time away from the ring.
I’ve never really thought about what things would be like had he been around, a Triple H feud was inevitable at some point, other than that, hard to say because so many things could have changed.
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TheXtremisT
Main Eventer
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Joined on: May 3, 2008 8:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 4, 2020 8:54:22 GMT -5
Stories I have heard about Shawn when it comes to losing a title to a fake injury are as follows.... Shane Douglas talks about how the day he was supposed to be Shawn at In Your House for the IC Title, that Shawn was joking with him and looked fine. Shawn then tell Shane he has to go into make up so they part ways. Next time Shane sees Shawn is when he is coming out to give up the IC Title and he has all these bruises and such on his face that apparently to Shane Douglas were not there before. Now, I know Shane talks a lot, but I never have known Shane to bullcrap a story. I also heard that when Shawn returned to Raw in the summer 1998 he was doing back hand springs and such in the back. It was X-Pac who said that in a shoot. So Pac went up to Triple H I think it was and said, "wasn't his back so bad he couldn't do things like this anymore??" and whoever it was, like I said, I think it was Triple H, said, "ha ha ha yeah... riiiight" and walked off. So as much as I love Shawn Michaels and am a fan of his work from that era, I also know how big of a piece of crap he was. You forgot about the one of him giving up the WWF title in 1997 instead of losing it to Bret at WM13. I remember reading that Bret said that people actually thought that he really was injured but them he came back to Raw like a month later and did a back flip off the top turnbuckle. Bret said when he saw that he knew Shawn was faking it and just didn't want to drop the belt to him. I can't remember who said it, it may have been Jericho, but he said that Shawn has forfeited the titles more times than he actually lost them (by being beaten in the ring). He didn't come back to properly wrestle until like June 1997, so him forfeiting the title in February that year was actually a long time not wrestling. |
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 4, 2020 10:27:33 GMT -5
I’ve always looked at the back injury as a “blessing in disguise” situation. Shawn was able to turn his life around and change for the better during his time away from the ring. I’ve never really thought about what things would be like had he been around, a Triple H feud was inevitable at some point, other than that, hard to say because so many things could have changed. I'm certainly glad that HBK examined himself both spiritually and physically to eventually come back to the biz. That being said, I still wish he hadn't missed the Attitude Era. Had he been clean and physically able, his feud with DX would have only been the beginning of what the WWF could have done with him. |
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Post by MKSavage on Sept 4, 2020 15:54:12 GMT -5
You forgot about the one of him giving up the WWF title in 1997 instead of losing it to Bret at WM13. I remember reading that Bret said that people actually thought that he really was injured but them he came back to Raw like a month later and did a back flip off the top turnbuckle. Bret said when he saw that he knew Shawn was faking it and just didn't want to drop the belt to him. I can't remember who said it, it may have been Jericho, but he said that Shawn has forfeited the titles more times than he actually lost them (by being beaten in the ring). He didn't come back to properly wrestle until like June 1997, so him forfeiting the title in February that year was actually a long time not wrestling. Yeah, but I think he returned earlier than that and did commentary. It was at one of those Raw's when he must have done the back flip off the top turnbuckle to make Bret think he was faking the whole time. I think Bret's complaint about it was that Shawn made it seem like his knee/leg was so bad that he was going to be gone for a long time, maybe a year, and that he was going to need surgery. So when Shawn came back a short time later and did the back flip, Bret thought that Shawn was clearly faking the injury. I believe Bret also said, that if his leg wasn't bad enough to need surgery, then he could have taken a month or so off and still been able to have their match at WM13, then taken some more time off. |
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Post by jason88cubs on Sept 4, 2020 16:52:49 GMT -5
It still blows my mind Vince let Shawn get away with so much, then screws over Bret who was a model employee pretty much
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jking1979
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Joined on: Oct 3, 2019 20:00:02 GMT -5
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Post by jking1979 on Sept 4, 2020 17:31:03 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels would have to lose to Hulk Hogan if he went to WCW brother. I can't see him being out of WWE anyway.
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Post by jason88cubs on Sept 4, 2020 18:53:29 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels would have to lose to Hulk Hogan if he went to WCW brother. I can't see him being out of WWE anyway. Shawn, Nash, Hall in WCW trying to take control
Oh boy
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TheXtremisT
Main Eventer
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Joined on: May 3, 2008 8:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 4, 2020 19:39:09 GMT -5
He didn't come back to properly wrestle until like June 1997, so him forfeiting the title in February that year was actually a long time not wrestling. Yeah, but I think he returned earlier than that and did commentary. It was at one of those Raw's when he must have done the back flip off the top turnbuckle to make Bret think he was faking the whole time. I think Bret's complaint about it was that Shawn made it seem like his knee/leg was so bad that he was going to be gone for a long time, maybe a year, and that he was going to need surgery. So when Shawn came back a short time later and did the back flip, Bret thought that Shawn was clearly faking the injury. I believe Bret also said, that if his leg wasn't bad enough to need surgery, then he could have taken a month or so off and still been able to have their match at WM13, then taken some more time off. Oh I get you now, think I heard that before. Definitely feels like something he would do |
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