@Chair.Shot
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Post by @Chair.Shot on Oct 14, 2024 6:51:36 GMT -5
I’ll state it again but this time in the form of a question: what legal issues do you foresee for the companies doing everything right?
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walter7paisley
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Post by walter7paisley on Oct 14, 2024 7:02:52 GMT -5
Surely it's a two-way street, though. If Sherri and Jake's estates know that they're not legally able to do business with Mitch then why are they proceeding to do so? It's the obligation of the person's estate, surely, to inform Mitch that they have a legends deal. Mattel is actively making figures of these people. Theres merch of them on the WWE shop, he should be aware of that. He's a business owner, he should do some due diligence before doing any act of business. I did, thats why I didn't agree to sign them. Also he was informed about the issue with his first figure with the godfather. He legit ignored it and doubled down with papa shango figure. But, if Sherri and Jake's estates are then proactively trying to engage in merch deals outside of their exclusive WWE legends contracts, isn't it their issue as much as it is Mitch's. I'm assuming Mitch has weighed the pros and cons and thought it'll be worth the risk. I certainly wouldn't agree with him, but that's on him. What're the cons in terms of the talent who're actively seeking deals beyond their WWE legends contracts? |
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kanik89
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Post by kanik89 on Oct 14, 2024 7:15:05 GMT -5
I’ll state it again but this time in the form of a question: what legal issues do you foresee for the companies doing everything right? If a multi billion dollar company finds out that their IP is being misused and then discovers a whole community of sellers do you think they're sending one C&D? No they're sending to everyone. And then it's going to be our jobs to show what we're doing is legal. That will require legal fees, time and resources. Once again thats money and time that can be going into other figures. And even if they don't come after companies doing things properly, it's a bad look for independent companies in general. It makes it seem like we don't care about ethics and laws. People on this board make it seem like its just MWFP who have told him its illegal, but its been multiple people who have brought it up. He has not said a word about it. Don't you think thats odd? This is going to be the last I speak of this. Go ask Mitch why he thinks what he's doing is legal and ethical. |
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taserface
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Post by taserface on Oct 14, 2024 7:17:31 GMT -5
Kanik probably was told to find out about Sherri for BRG, he probably told them no, and was wrong. Now they are doubling down. Mitch has got a good thing going with G & G. I seriously doubt he’s making these ‘illegal’ characters. He probably has done his homework, as he can’t afford to take on WWE/Mattel I like MWFP guys but they are coming off as bltches about this IMO Just like Jake’s estate, Sherri’s came to us as well. Both have active legends deal that will make it impossible for anyone other than mattel to make. Which makes the latest announcements illegal. Davey Boy has a different agreement and his estate is run by an agency that licenses his likeness out. The illegal activities is bad for the community because it can cause legal issues for everyone. Even the ones doing everything right. That’s time, money and resources that can go into other figures. You said he probably did his homework. Well he’s had multiple people tell him what he’s doing is illegal. I haven’t heard him publicly say why what he’s doing isn’t. He’s been pretty quiet about it. Maybe he should explain how he was able to get around a legends contract that has exclusive rights to someone’s likeness. If he has a way to ‘get around’ Legends deal exclusivity, why on earth would he share it with ‘competitors’. That’s for other companies to figure out themselves How is Billy Gunn being made by Jazwares? He has a Legends contract. I’m guessing Jazwares don’t owe anybody an explanation of how. If it was illegal, and if WWE cared I’d guess they’d press it Maybe all Legends deals are not the same |
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kanik89
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Post by kanik89 on Oct 14, 2024 7:23:35 GMT -5
Just like Jake’s estate, Sherri’s came to us as well. Both have active legends deal that will make it impossible for anyone other than mattel to make. Which makes the latest announcements illegal. Davey Boy has a different agreement and his estate is run by an agency that licenses his likeness out. The illegal activities is bad for the community because it can cause legal issues for everyone. Even the ones doing everything right. That’s time, money and resources that can go into other figures. You said he probably did his homework. Well he’s had multiple people tell him what he’s doing is illegal. I haven’t heard him publicly say why what he’s doing isn’t. He’s been pretty quiet about it. Maybe he should explain how he was able to get around a legends contract that has exclusive rights to someone’s likeness. If he has a way to ‘get around’ Legends deal exclusivity, why on earth would he share it with ‘competitors’. That’s for other companies to figure out themselves How is Billy Gunn being made by Jazwares? He has a Legends contract. I’m guessing Jazwares don’t owe anybody an explanation of how. If it was illegal, and if WWE cared I’d guess they’d press it Maybe all Legends deals are not the same They're not all the same, but we are aware of those contracts. It's not our place to say whats in each legends contract but we know they exclusivity to those. It's the lack of due diligence in this case and not caring. |
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misterfigi
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Post by misterfigi on Oct 14, 2024 7:51:51 GMT -5
Mattel is actively making figures of these people. Theres merch of them on the WWE shop, he should be aware of that. He's a business owner, he should do some due diligence before doing any act of business. I did, thats why I didn't agree to sign them. Also he was informed about the issue with his first figure with the godfather. He legit ignored it and doubled down with papa shango figure. But, if Sherri and Jake's estates are then proactively trying to engage in merch deals outside of their exclusive WWE legends contracts, isn't it their issue as much as it is Mitch's. I'm assuming Mitch has weighed the pros and cons and thought it'll be worth the risk. I certainly wouldn't agree with him, but that's on him. What're the cons in terms of the talent who're actively seeking deals beyond their WWE legends contracts? This is how I see it. If a trademark holder signed an exclusive deal with WWE (who knows if they do or do not?) and then go ahead and sign something with Mitch then the issue will be with WWE and the trademark holder going against their agreement. Is there proof that Sherri and Jake's TM owners signed exclusive deals with WWE? (I do not know what those deals are like). Is it possible that talent told WWE they will not sign an exclusive deal, take less money and are allowed to also make other outside deals?
As for people telling Mitch what he is doing is illegal, I am guessing the people who matter (lawyers, likely from WWE saying knock it off) are not the people telling him this. I think as long as Mitch signed contracts with the trademark owners the only issues that could come up are between trademark owner and WWE, who may choose to end their broken contract and maybe try to recoup losses from trademark holder who broke the contract.
I dont know what is going on either way, I hope Mitch is doing things the right way though. If Sherri figures are "illegal" and Mitch gets a cease and desist and can not fulfill everyone who pre-ordered already, I cannot see that being good for his business. With so many Retro companies out and what I cant imagine is a huge fanbase for them, breaking that trust with the customers by trying to release a figure he has no right to is dumb. On the other hand maybe other people just do not know what they do not know? I know I do not know what deals anyone has.
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@Chair.Shot
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Post by @Chair.Shot on Oct 14, 2024 8:44:07 GMT -5
I’ll state it again but this time in the form of a question: what legal issues do you foresee for the companies doing everything right? If a multi billion dollar company finds out that their IP is being misused and then discovers a whole community of sellers do you think they're sending one C&D? No they're sending to everyone. And then it's going to be our jobs to show what we're doing is legal. That will require legal fees, time and resources. Once again thats money and time that can be going into other figures. And even if they don't come after companies doing things properly, it's a bad look for independent companies in general. It makes it seem like we don't care about ethics and laws. People on this board make it seem like its just MWFP who have told him its illegal, but its been multiple people who have brought it up. He has not said a word about it. Don't you think thats odd? This is going to be the last I speak of this. Go ask Mitch why he thinks what he's doing is legal and ethical. Thank you for answering. What you have said pretty much echoes the discussion on this from last week. It’s good to have confirmation of that. My stance on this is that no, I do not think it is fair for the actions of a few to cost other businesses time, money, and resources. At the same time, you have not made your full intent clear by calling Mitch out in this thread and elsewhere online. The goal to have Mitch stop producing figures illegally is obvious but how you are attempting to get there is what isn’t quite making sense. Do you want the figure community as a whole to put pressure on him to stop this? Are you asking people to stop buying his products until changes are made? Do you want people to start leaving comments or messaging him directly in regards to this situation? The end goal is fine because we agree that it could hurt everyone involved. I don’t want you guys hurt, I don’t want collectors hurt. But because you are the one bringing this to our attention here, it’s only fair to know what you would like the rest of us to do. What steps do you propose that we, the WFigs community, take to move forward from this? I’m not Mitch, I can’t speak for him or anyone involved with hastteltoy - But I don’t mind asking either. |
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Post by micco on Oct 14, 2024 9:04:40 GMT -5
But, if Sherri and Jake's estates are then proactively trying to engage in merch deals outside of their exclusive WWE legends contracts, isn't it their issue as much as it is Mitch's. I'm assuming Mitch has weighed the pros and cons and thought it'll be worth the risk. I certainly wouldn't agree with him, but that's on him. What're the cons in terms of the talent who're actively seeking deals beyond their WWE legends contracts? This is how I see it. If a trademark holder signed an exclusive deal with WWE (who knows if they do or do not?) and then go ahead and sign something with Mitch then the issue will be with WWE and the trademark holder going against their agreement. Is there proof that Sherri and Jake's TM owners signed exclusive deals with WWE? (I do not know what those deals are like). Is it possible that talent told WWE they will not sign an exclusive deal, take less money and are allowed to also make other outside deals?
As for people telling Mitch what he is doing is illegal, I am guessing the people who matter (lawyers, likely from WWE saying knock it off) are not the people telling him this. I think as long as Mitch signed contracts with the trademark owners the only issues that could come up are between trademark owner and WWE, who may choose to end their broken contract and maybe try to recoup losses from trademark holder who broke the contract. I dont know what is going on either way, I hope Mitch is doing things the right way though. If Sherri figures are "illegal" and Mitch gets a cease and desist and can not fulfill everyone who pre-ordered already, I cannot see that being good for his business. With so many Retro companies out and what I cant imagine is a huge fanbase for them, breaking that trust with the customers by trying to release a figure he has no right to is dumb. On the other hand maybe other people just do not know what they do not know? I know I do not know what deals anyone has.
That’s kinda what I think. And is probably what a lawyer has explained to Mitch. |
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walter7paisley
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Post by walter7paisley on Oct 14, 2024 9:11:30 GMT -5
If a multi billion dollar company finds out that their IP is being misused and then discovers a whole community of sellers do you think they're sending one C&D? No they're sending to everyone. And then it's going to be our jobs to show what we're doing is legal. That will require legal fees, time and resources. Once again thats money and time that can be going into other figures. And even if they don't come after companies doing things properly, it's a bad look for independent companies in general. It makes it seem like we don't care about ethics and laws. People on this board make it seem like its just MWFP who have told him its illegal, but its been multiple people who have brought it up. He has not said a word about it. Don't you think thats odd? This is going to be the last I speak of this. Go ask Mitch why he thinks what he's doing is legal and ethical. Thank you for answering. What you have said pretty much echoes the discussion on this from last week. It’s good to have confirmation of that. My stance on this is that no, I do not think it is fair for the actions of a few to cost other businesses time, money, and resources. At the same time, you have not made your full intent clear by calling Mitch out in this thread and elsewhere online. The goal to have Mitch stop producing figures illegally is obvious but how you are attempting to get there is what isn’t quite making sense. Do you want the figure community as a whole to put pressure on him to stop this? Are you asking people to stop buying his products until changes are made? Do you want people to start leaving comments or messaging him directly in regards to this situation? The end goal is fine because we agree that it could hurt everyone involved. I don’t want you guys hurt, I don’t want collectors hurt. But because you are the one bringing this to our attention here, it’s only fair to know what you would like the rest of us to do. What steps do you propose that we, the WFigs community, take to move forward from this? I’m not Mitch, I can’t speak for him or anyone involved with hastteltoy - But I don’t mind asking either. Frankly, I don't care if the WWE are losing money on this. They're hardly hurting for income. 🤷 |
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walter7paisley
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Post by walter7paisley on Oct 14, 2024 9:11:56 GMT -5
But, if Sherri and Jake's estates are then proactively trying to engage in merch deals outside of their exclusive WWE legends contracts, isn't it their issue as much as it is Mitch's. I'm assuming Mitch has weighed the pros and cons and thought it'll be worth the risk. I certainly wouldn't agree with him, but that's on him. What're the cons in terms of the talent who're actively seeking deals beyond their WWE legends contracts? This is how I see it. If a trademark holder signed an exclusive deal with WWE (who knows if they do or do not?) and then go ahead and sign something with Mitch then the issue will be with WWE and the trademark holder going against their agreement. Is there proof that Sherri and Jake's TM owners signed exclusive deals with WWE? (I do not know what those deals are like). Is it possible that talent told WWE they will not sign an exclusive deal, take less money and are allowed to also make other outside deals?
As for people telling Mitch what he is doing is illegal, I am guessing the people who matter (lawyers, likely from WWE saying knock it off) are not the people telling him this. I think as long as Mitch signed contracts with the trademark owners the only issues that could come up are between trademark owner and WWE, who may choose to end their broken contract and maybe try to recoup losses from trademark holder who broke the contract.
I dont know what is going on either way, I hope Mitch is doing things the right way though. If Sherri figures are "illegal" and Mitch gets a cease and desist and can not fulfill everyone who pre-ordered already, I cannot see that being good for his business. With so many Retro companies out and what I cant imagine is a huge fanbase for them, breaking that trust with the customers by trying to release a figure he has no right to is dumb. On the other hand maybe other people just do not know what they do not know? I know I do not know what deals anyone has.
Totally agree. And while I don't know what these legends contracts consist of, I'd assume that there'd be a stipulation in there outlining the fact that the legend in question is bound to the WWE/Mattel while that exclusive contract is ongoing. |
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@Chair.Shot
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Post by @Chair.Shot on Oct 14, 2024 9:14:47 GMT -5
walter7paisley my comments were not addressing WWE’s side of the situation. They were specifically aimed at the independent toy companies.
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taserface
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Post by taserface on Oct 14, 2024 9:30:48 GMT -5
I forgot about DDP. He’s obviously got a Legends contract. So I guess Epic is doing things illegally too? With DDP and supposedly The Brain. So Epic and Hasttel now?
I will say it again, my favorite indy line is BRG, but man they are coming off as so petty in this situation. Just my opinion
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misterfigi
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Post by misterfigi on Oct 14, 2024 9:53:18 GMT -5
I forgot about DDP. He’s obviously got a Legends contract. So I guess Epic is doing things illegally too? With DDP and supposedly The Brain. So Epic and Hasttel now? I will say it again, my favorite indy line is BRG, but man they are coming off as so petty in this situation. Just my opinion If my crapmemory serves me right I seem to remember hearing that DDP signed a WWE Legends deal after the Epic DDP was already on sale, so seems likely they had the deal prior to the signing.
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walter7paisley
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Post by walter7paisley on Oct 14, 2024 9:58:05 GMT -5
walter7paisley my comments were not addressing WWE’s side of the situation. They were specifically aimed at the independent toy companies. No, I get that. I'm just saying that from what I can tell, it's the WWE who will lose money on this, and that doesn't bother me. I'm not entirely sure how Kanik thinks that any other independent company will be affected. I can't see how that would work. |
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taserface
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Post by taserface on Oct 14, 2024 10:05:17 GMT -5
I forgot about DDP. He’s obviously got a Legends contract. So I guess Epic is doing things illegally too? With DDP and supposedly The Brain. So Epic and Hasttel now? I will say it again, my favorite indy line is BRG, but man they are coming off as so petty in this situation. Just my opinion If my crapmemory serves me right I seem to remember hearing that DDP signed a WWE Legends deal after the Epic DDP was already on sale, so seems likely they had the deal prior to the signing.
You may be right but it seems like Mattel has been doing something with him for a while. From Target Legends, to Greatest Hits, failed Nitro ring UE, MNW But again who knows since everything is kept secret regarding who’s signed and when, etc |
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CMW Toys
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Post by CMW Toys on Oct 14, 2024 10:07:36 GMT -5
I forgot about DDP. He’s obviously got a Legends contract. So I guess Epic is doing things illegally too? With DDP and supposedly The Brain. So Epic and Hasttel now? I will say it again, my favorite indy line is BRG, but man they are coming off as so petty in this situation. Just my opinion Before this goes any further, no, Epic are not doing things illegally. Both DDP and Brain were signed in windows where their legends contracts were lapsed. Both are completely legal. WWE were fully aware of the DDP figure through the process... |
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3poajamie
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Post by 3poajamie on Oct 14, 2024 10:19:53 GMT -5
Yeah what CMW said above, both were signed in a window where they didn’t have a legends deal
Just to make sure Epic were not going to upset the apple cart they got everything signed off by WWE before starting production
FWIW I don’t thing Mitch has done anything illegal on purpose if it is, just might be a bit naive in accepting an estates word that they aren’t in an exclusive deal (which they are) and is already 5k in the hole after paying for the molds and production
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@Chair.Shot
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Post by @Chair.Shot on Oct 14, 2024 11:03:26 GMT -5
walter7paisley my comments were not addressing WWE’s side of the situation. They were specifically aimed at the independent toy companies. No, I get that. I'm just saying that from what I can tell, it's the WWE who will lose money on this, and that doesn't bother me. I'm not entirely sure how Kanik thinks that any other independent company will be affected. I can't see how that would work. I do agree with Kanik that there is cause for concern in that if one company ruffles too many feathers, a large corporation like TKO will likely be overly aggressive in protecting their money and their status. It wouldn’t be the first time a company - or WWE for that matter - has gone above and beyond to try and make an example out of someone and in process, step on others. Casualties of war one might say but I think Kanik is trying to prevent that bomb from being dropped. It would absolutely hurt Mitch’s business and some of our other favorite independent companies as well. Think about all of the figures we see made and how few of them can claim to be completely original. Either they used a look and/or name from a company now owned be WWE or even the packaging is a tribute to something that they used to produce. For those reasons alone, WWE Legal can send out a C&D even if it won’t hold up in court. Just because a company CAN win in court doesn’t mean that they will recover your expenses. Win or lose, it is a headache for each company to have to respond to WWE Legal. It sucks for everyone involved. WWE looks like a bully because they want to protect what is theirs and find the most effective way to deter companies from continuing this practice. It sucks for collectors like all of us who just want the figures. It sucks for the estates or old wrestlers not getting the additional income, and it sucks for the independent companies who would be impacted by this. |
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@Chair.Shot
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Post by @Chair.Shot on Oct 14, 2024 11:09:47 GMT -5
Yeah what CMW said above, both were signed in a window where they didn’t have a legends deal Just to make sure Epic were not going to upset the apple cart they got everything signed off by WWE before starting production FWIW I don’t thing Mitch has done anything illegal on purpose if it is, just might be a bit naive in accepting an estates word that they aren’t in an exclusive deal (which they are) and is already 5k in the hole after paying for the molds and production That’s why I have so much faith in them for the long term. They go out of their way to do things by the book, they don’t get involved with really anything, they don’t spam their customers, and they have been putting out quality products (Sabu aside) that are continually improving. |
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kojikanemoto
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Post by kojikanemoto on Oct 14, 2024 11:39:07 GMT -5
There’s also the issue of the WWE-owned rights, i.e. the likeness of the character of say “Duke ‘the Dumpster’ Drose” regardless of the name used. That seems like a very “grey” area, and it wouldn’t be just Mitch.
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