|
Post by T R W on May 13, 2012 7:13:13 GMT -5
A good friend of mine from college posted this on her facebook page the other day. The logic isn't going to be perfect for sure, but a lot of people seem to forget that issues like this have real people behind them. But this is someone directly impacted by this decision, after moving to NC not too long ago.
I have 221 friends on facebook. I'm going to be honest and say that I don't know who a lot of you are. I think some of you are old co-workers, or I met you at a bar, or we went to school together. Perhaps I shouldn't even be saying this to you. You may never even read this note and that is probably A-Ok. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I do feel compelled to write something more than my usual silliness. In the last week I have heard and read many facts, feelings, figures, and projections about the gay "marriage" issue. I saw Mr. President weigh in. I have seen ugly, evil posts from both sides. I listened to a pastor in NC say the most vile, degrading things about homosexuals and I listened to the whole clip. My cheeks are burning now in shame that I didn't stop it as soon as I realized where he was going with it. And it is really difficult not to take that personally. Because, here's the thing: America, you guys are voting on ME! It is intensely personal and it is not a ring that I stepped into willingly. If you know me at all, then you know that I am a fiercely private person. This is so insane, why is it an issue? I feel like this should be a no-brainer.
Because I don't for a minute believe that anyone in the country cares if I have a joint bank account with another woman. I don't believe they care that we eat breakfast, plan vacations, shop at Target, clean the house, do the yard-work, and in the evenings watch our favorite television shows together. I'm sure my fellow countrymen could not give a crap who wins the battle for the comforter tonight or whose turn it REALLY is to clean out the litter-box. I refuse to believe anyone really feels that we shouldn't be able to sign as next-of-kin in case of emergencies or shouldn't be granted visitation rights in the hospital. Unless maybe you just assumed that we can and then you might be outraged to find it is not so. No, what my fellow countrymen and women do feel passionately enough to write legislation and stage elections over is the way that I have sex. Apparently it is all wrong. I have yet to hear anyone from either side call this spade a spade. The majority of Americans do not like the way that I have sex and feel compelled to publicly chastise me for it.
Why do we even pretend that we are voting on an issue of marriage? We are voting about GAY SEX! Can we just put the sodomy laws back on the books and when we are finally endowed with the legal benefits of marriage in this country, we promise we won't have any fun on our honeymoons at all! As a matter of fact, we promise to never engage in oral or anal sex again ...as long as the straight people give them up too. What? No takers? If I swear that I am duly contrite over the whole gay sex thing, will you please let my wife make medical decisions for me if I am ever incapacitated, without the two of us having to jump through legal hoops first? Can I just say, I'm sorry that you don't like the way that I have sex? I truly am. I am sorry that America seems to be collectively losing a tremendous amount of brain cells to thoughts about the ways in which gay people are having sex when we could be using those cells to think about the energy crisis.
Oh? It's because Jesus doesn't like gay sex! Well, if my memory serves, and it has been a while I'll admit, Jesus doesn't like fornication of any kind including premarital sex and masturbation, divorce, Anne Rice who nobody cares about anymore anyway so I'm going to go out on a limb here and just substitute Stephanie Meyer, MTV, BET, Proctor and Gamble, disobedient wives YES that means OBEY your husbands, lukewarm Christians-if you are not for him then you're AGAINST him! and Smurfs. Oh, and Harry Potter before all the witchcraft and wizarding was widely recognized as Christian symbolism and stamped with the Jesus seal of approval. And for those country music fans who think you are safe, the last time I was home I found myself watching CMT with my dad and I was EMBARRASSED!!! I'm pretty damn sure Jesus doesn't like Lady Antebellum either or whatever whore-face hussy that was writhing and grinding her way through that music video. And now I have begun slinging mud. Because I am angry. Because this hurts.
Put yourselves in our shoes just for a minute and imagine that your state had been voting on you. I was going to say your voting rights, but that isn't even right. Something fundamentally you. Some essential you-ness that you have no control over like eye-color or hair-color or height, we'll leave the skin color out for now. What if your state were voting just to say that "Hey, we don't like short people. We just want all you short people to know that we do not approve of your shortness. We most emphatically disapprove of short people!" The voice of the people has been heard on the issue of shortness and tomorrow when you are standing in line at the post office, you will look askance of every person over 5'5". You won't be able to stop yourself from wondering if they voted, how they voted, if they hate you just because you are short, how far their hatred would extend if they caught you holding hands with another short person in an alley outside of a short people's bar, if maybe they would change their mind if they knew you.
You may say that being gay is a choice and being short is not and I would agree with you one hundred percent. Anyone who says they did not have a choice whether to be homosexual is lying. The confusion lies in the fact that for many gay people the choice is not gay or straight, but life or death. Maybe for some it was as easy as "now I'm straight". I don't know. For me and many others who struggled to come to terms with our sexuality, it was literally a struggle for life; a gasping for air. For those of us who come from Christian homes, the self-loathing and self-flagellation can go on for years. Ultimately, how many years can you quite literally strangle, and stomp, poison and punish your own soul, your own self without breaking or dying? Would you be able to do it? Imagine your heterosexuality is on the wrong side of normal. Imagine meeting someone of the same sex at the end of a church aisle at your wedding. Are you physically repelled by the thought of having gay sex with this person? Could you smile through the ceremony and do it anyway if it was God's plan for you? For how many years?
So yes, I made a decision to be gay. I chose a partner and built a life with her. We have cohabitated for the better part of this decade for better and for worse, our finances are hopelessly entangled, we have many yesterdays behind us and plans for many and more tomorrows together. We love one another and stood up in church in front of friends and family and yes even God and said so. But here's the thing, if I die tomorrow all the major decisions I have made in my adult life would not stand. My partner and I have no lasting legacy because we have no legal standing as a committed couple in this country. We cannot legally make a choice for each other. We cannot legally choose. If I die tomorrow, my entire adulthood will be erased. I, thirty-four years old and almost a decade into this relationship, am once again my parents' child and nothing more. And the knowledge that my neighbors have willed that to be, makes me just angry and hurt enough to sling a little mud. [/b]
|
|
|
Post by Adam on May 13, 2012 7:42:56 GMT -5
She's preaching to the choir in my case.
|
|
|
Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on May 13, 2012 8:37:42 GMT -5
See, this is the problem. I so sick of people treating me and other Christians as if they're just uneducated. As if their stance on not believing that homosexuality is right is one of complete blind ignorance. Think that showing someone a movie or a clip on youtube (I've seen both btw) is going to sway my mind when I've already done 20x more than that when it comes to researching this topic is insulting. I didn't post a picture of the Bible or one of many publications that support my argument in response to you did I? Like I said before. Weather they made a full conscious decision to be gay is beyond me. But I'm not convinced that people are born that way. And once again, this is something that I've done research on myself and don't need to resort to some 4 minute cartoon clip that seems to be meant for children. People like to turn to science attempt to prove otherwise, but there isn't one conclusive scientific experiment to prove such. If you believe that they are, that's fine with me. But trying to force that on me as fact when there's no hard evidence is no different than me doing so with my "book full of stories and rules." Anyway, the bottom line is this folks. Like I said before, I'd choose not to vote on this issue. Weather ______ can marry _____ shouldn't be something that I or anyone else has to vote for. But if I HAD to, I'd have to vote no. Why? Not because I don't want people to have equal rights (for the 100th time). It's because in voting for it, I'd be encouraging something that I believe is wrong, and doing that would truly sear my conscience. You can take that however you wish ladies and gents. I honestly don't know how else to explain it. I'm a firm believer in God's word and The Bible. There's a passage in the Bible that speaks of Christians being persecuted for standing by the word of God. This seems to be one of those cases for me, to be honest. I know my beliefs and opinions aren't popular, and I'm fine with that.
|
|
|
Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on May 13, 2012 8:45:13 GMT -5
Oh, and one other thing. Yeezy's Mullet had said earlier that he's not convinced that people don't choose to be homosexual, maybe you should take a look at this: All this video did was: 1. Go out of it's way to make Christians look stupid. I have a hard time taking biased documentaries seriously. 2. Presented a bunch of theories and "likely" statistics.
|
|
|
Post by Adam on May 13, 2012 9:11:34 GMT -5
Weather ______ can marry _____ shouldn't be something that I or anyone else has to vote for. Agreed. But if I HAD to, I'd have to vote no. Why? Not because I don't want people to have equal rights (for the 100th time). It's because in voting for it, I'd be encouraging something that I believe is wrong, and doing that would truly sear my conscience. You can take that however you wish ladies and gents. I honestly don't know how else to explain it. I can't reconcile how you're claiming to be in favor of equality, but then admit in the beginning of this thread that you would vote "yes" on the NC bill. It doesn't matter what your intentions are in this case. Not to mention I can't understand how allowing gay couples the same freedom to be happy has any effect on anyone. But whatever. I'm a firm believer in God's word and The Bible. There's a passage in the Bible that speaks of Christians being persecuted for standing by the word of God. This seems to be one of those cases for me, to be honest. I know my beliefs and opinions aren't popular, and I'm fine with that. Come on now...not the persecution card. If I'm beating somebody over the head with a blunt object and someone comes and takes it away from me, is that persecuting me? Though I don't share the religious beliefs that you have, I respect your right to have them. But I remain unconvinced about the equality issue.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Ragnarok on May 13, 2012 9:33:51 GMT -5
I'm a firm believer in God's word and The Bible. There's a passage in the Bible that speaks of Christians being persecuted for standing by the word of God. This seems to be one of those cases for me, to be honest. I know my beliefs and opinions aren't popular, and I'm fine with that. And what of all the homosexuals that have been persecuted by Christians and others over the last thousand years? If you really did watch that documentary you must have heard that Christian pastor say if he ever saw a guy check him out he'd kill him. Nice, that's such a good Christian thing to say isn't it? Or all those wonderful Christians that picket and hold signs that say God hates fags? Oh and that couple (two guys) that received a letter threatening two put a bullet in both their heads for being gay. I certainly don't see Christians getting the kind of treatment that homosexuals do, so don't give me that persecution bullsh*t, because the only ones that are being persecuted here are homosexuals. Suicides, broken families, miserable lives all because of homophobia. Which brings me to another point that was made in that documentary. There is no commandment that says "thou shalt not be a homosexual" but there is one that says "Thou shalt not bear false witness". When a homosexual gets "saved" and denies their homosexuality they are breaking one of the 10 commandments, not by being gay but by being something they're not. So what then? I'm sorry but you crying persecution is incredibly absurd when it's quite obvious that homosexuals are the ones that are really being persecuted way more than Christians. Christians do not have it anywhere near as difficult as homosexuals do and you know it. Homosexuals even though it's gotten slightly better, are still treated as outcasts and Jesus did say never to turn away an outcast, did he not? There are so many ridiculous rules from the Old Testament that didn't carry over the the New Testament and homosexuality is one of those things, but it's still viewed as an "abomination". And to say that homosexuality is really a choice is just pure ignorance plain and simple. It is no more a choice than being left handed, or what your hair color is or your eye color. Maybe people wouldn't get on Christianity's case so much if the majority of them weren't hypocritical bigots that didn't try to tell others how they should live their life.
|
|
Dexter Morgan
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jul 8, 2008 15:30:18 GMT -5
Posts: 3,130
|
Post by Dexter Morgan on May 13, 2012 10:01:46 GMT -5
I don't want to quote as it would make the post long as crap BUT I am for equality for everyone, Cobra and ARR I don't understand the team up on Yeezy.
It's a simple concept, he is for equality in all cases except for this not because he is a bigot but because it goes against what he believes in.
ARR you mention beating someone over the head with something, you and Cobra are trying to back Yeezy in a corner with an answer and when it doesn't fit with yours he doesn't want equality and is a horrible, uneducated bigot when it isn't the case. He simply stated at first it didn't bother him, then when asked he expanded saying it was against his beliefs then he got turned into the the guy who didn't want equality.
Cobra, homosexuals aren't the only persecuted people in the world, sorry bud. While they are treated worse then Christians they aren't the only people looked at different. Add to that the video cover you showed was a documentary on a way way crazy family, every race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc have bad apples. The church picketing with signs that say god hates fags is the westboro baptist church the most radical and attention seeking church in the world, if you don't know the difference from them and a normal church you are uneducated on the subject. Also on the topic of choosing or being born gay I for one am leaning toward if not fully on board with born being a sexual orientation straight or gay, but it can't be proven just like evolution (which is a theory) so if some people don't believe it happens that way they aren't wrong, they just have a different viewpoint.
|
|
|
Post by k5 on May 13, 2012 10:14:14 GMT -5
See, this is the problem. I so sick of people treating me and other Christians as if they're just uneducated. As if their stance on not believing that homosexuality is right is one of complete blind ignorance. Think that showing someone a movie or a clip on youtube (I've seen both btw) is going to sway my mind when I've already done 20x more than that when it comes to researching this topic is insulting. I didn't post a picture of the Bible or one of many publications that support my argument in response to you did I? Like I said before. Weather they made a full conscious decision to be gay is beyond me. But I'm not convinced that people are born that way. And once again, this is something that I've done research on myself and don't need to resort to some 4 minute cartoon clip that seems to be meant for children. People like to turn to science attempt to prove otherwise, but there isn't one conclusive scientific experiment to prove such. If you believe that they are, that's fine with me. But trying to force that on me as fact when there's no hard evidence is no different than me doing so with my "book full of stories and rules." Anyway, the bottom line is this folks. Like I said before, I'd choose not to vote on this issue. Weather ______ can marry _____ shouldn't be something that I or anyone else has to vote for. But if I HAD to, I'd have to vote no. Why? Not because I don't want people to have equal rights (for the 100th time). It's because in voting for it, I'd be encouraging something that I believe is wrong, and doing that would truly sear my conscience. You can take that however you wish ladies and gents. I honestly don't know how else to explain it. I'm a firm believer in God's word and The Bible. There's a passage in the Bible that speaks of Christians being persecuted for standing by the word of God. This seems to be one of those cases for me, to be honest. I know my beliefs and opinions aren't popular, and I'm fine with that. i'm sorry badnews, but you could not be more wrong about this. you can try to make it into some kind of religious quest after receiving flack for your views, but that is exactly what the west baptist church does, and quite frankly you're both wrong. this is the thing right here. you're saying literally, "i want people to have equal rights, but i want to restrict these people from having the same rights as me, as i view their practices as a lesser practise." you DON'T WANT them to have EQUAL RIGHTS as YOU. YOU CONDEMN THEIR PRACTISES. THAT IS NOT EQUALITY AND YOU CAN NOT ATTEMPT TO DENY THAT.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Ragnarok on May 13, 2012 10:19:13 GMT -5
I don't want to quote as it would make the post long as crap BUT I am for equality for everyone, Cobra and ARR I don't understand the team up on Yeezy. It's a simple concept, he is for equality in all cases except for this not because he is a bigot but because it goes against what he believes in. ARR you mention beating someone over the head with something, you and Cobra are trying to back Yeezy in a corner with an answer and when it doesn't fit with yours he doesn't want equality and is a horrible, uneducated bigot when it isn't the case. He simply stated at first it didn't bother him, then when asked he expanded saying it was against his beliefs then he got turned into the the guy who didn't want equality. Cobra, homosexuals aren't the only persecuted people in the world, sorry bud. While they are treated worse then Christians they aren't the only people looked at different. Add to that the video cover you showed was a documentary on a way way crazy family, every race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc have bad apples. The church picketing with signs that say god hates fags is the westboro baptist church the most radical and attention seeking church in the world, if you don't know the difference from them and a normal church you are uneducated on the subject. Also on the topic of choosing or being born gay I for one am leaning toward if not fully on board with born being a sexual orientation straight or gay, but it can't be proven just like evolution (which is a theory) so if some people don't believe it happens that way they aren't wrong, they just have a different viewpoint. Yes of course I realize that, but the topic at hand is homosexuality. I'm not just fighting for homosexuals to have equality, the bigger picture here is me fighting for human rights in general. I was a brainwashed Christian for pretty much my whole life, it was only just recently that I became enlightened and realized that it is really just a fear mongering tool used to keep people in line. It discourages free thinking and free will and it denies certain human rights. I'm not trying to back anyone into a corner, that was never my intention, but I am a firm believer in human rights, free thinking and free will and I will do whatever it takes to encourage others to fight for these ideals. I see nothing wrong with that. Also, because of all the brainwashing I went through, I hold a lot of resentment towards Christianity and religion in general. I would be a hypocrite if I said that people shouldn't be a Christian or other religion, because it is their right to believe in whatever they want. But when it is used as a tool to deny human rights and free thinking, that's when I crack down on it. In my eyes, bigotry against homosexuals is no different than racism. And getting back to homosexuality being a choice or not, I stand by my belief that it is not a choice. But that is beside the point, because even if someone does chose to be a homosexual, then that is their right and no one should deny a person for the way they want to live their own life. Whether you agree with it or not, it's their life and their decision, not anyone else's.
|
|
|
Post by k5 on May 13, 2012 10:27:20 GMT -5
i'm all for equality, i just don't see why women should be viewed on a level playing field as men. my religion firmly states women's job in the world.
i'm all for equality, but i think black people really serve an essential service to our economy as slaves.
i'm all for equality, but i don't see the problem by black people having their own side of the bus.
i'm all for equality, but i don't see why any more middle eastern people need to get into the country. they have their country, no?
i'm all for equality, but i think that asians shouldn't be able to drive. it's just my views, my stance.
|
|
|
Post by Ben - #6 Munchie on May 13, 2012 10:31:09 GMT -5
If 'God' loves everyone equally then surely 'he' supports Gay marriage? Otherwise 'he' doesn't love everyone equally.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Ragnarok on May 13, 2012 10:46:56 GMT -5
If 'God' loves everyone equally then surely 'he' supports Gay marriage? Otherwise 'he' doesn't love everyone equally. He hates the "sin" not the "sinner". And K5 made a good point, the Bible clearly states that women are inferior to men. Yeezey, if you ever told your wife to quit her job and to stay at home to do all the cooking and cleaning, and also that you and you alone are in charge of all the finances and that she must do whatever you say because she is the woman and you are the man, (the Bible clearly states that this is how a household is supposed to be run) how well do you think she would take that? I'd imagine she'd be pissed, but according to the Bible she has no say in the matter and must do what she is told because she is a woman. I'm pretty sure you've said in the past that you and your wife are equal in the marriage, well guess what? That's going against the Bible too. That my friends is what you call selective reading. The Bible says I have to be against homosexuals, so I must do what the Bible says. The Bible also says that women are inferior to men, but we'll just overlook that minor little detail.
|
|
Deleted
Joined on: Apr 28, 2024 10:03:21 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 11:29:13 GMT -5
One thing I've always wondered is if the Bible says God created everyone in his image, then why does it also say to hate the gays and others?
|
|
|
Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on May 13, 2012 12:04:55 GMT -5
One thing I've always wondered is if the Bible says God created everyone in his image, then why does it also say to hate the gays and others? Where does it even say that? Please, if you can properly reference it, don't cite scripture.
|
|
|
Post by King of Kings on May 13, 2012 12:09:24 GMT -5
I understand there's a debate going on, but if you guys are debating for the reason of changing a man's opinion because you think yours is superior, you're gonna have a bad time.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Ragnarok on May 13, 2012 12:11:10 GMT -5
One thing I've always wondered is if the Bible says God created everyone in his image, then why does it also say to hate the gays and others? Where does it even say that? Please, if you can properly reference it, don't cite scripture. Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
|
|
|
Post by Lord Ragnarok on May 13, 2012 12:12:15 GMT -5
I understand there's a debate going on, but if you guys are debating for the reason of changing a man's opinion because you think yours is superior, you're gonna have a bad time. I'm fighting for human rights not to change another's opinion(s).
|
|
|
Post by King of Kings on May 13, 2012 12:20:20 GMT -5
I understand there's a debate going on, but if you guys are debating for the reason of changing a man's opinion because you think yours is superior, you're gonna have a bad time. I'm fighting for human rights not to change another's opinion(s). Fair enough. I mean I'm all for gay marriage, and I think it's unfair to ban it...I mean for as long as I was in school I was always told of separation between church & state and I was always under the impression that marriage was under the church...
|
|
|
Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on May 13, 2012 12:30:41 GMT -5
If 'God' loves everyone equally then surely 'he' supports Gay marriage? Otherwise 'he' doesn't love everyone equally. He hates the "sin" not the "sinner". And K5 made a good point, the Bible clearly states that women are inferior to men. Yeezey, if you ever told your wife to quit her job and to stay at home to do all the cooking and cleaning, and also that you and you alone are in charge of all the finances and that she must do whatever you say because she is the woman and you are the man, (the Bible clearly states that this is how a household is supposed to be run) how well do you think she would take that? I'd imagine she'd be pissed, but according to the Bible she has no say in the matter and must do what she is told because she is a woman. I'm pretty sure you've said in the past that you and your wife are equal in the marriage, well guess what? That's going against the Bible too. That my friends is what you call selective reading. The Bible says I have to be against homosexuals, so I must do what the Bible says. The Bible also says that women are inferior to men, but we'll just overlook that minor little detail. Wrong again. The Bible does not state that women are inferior to men. According to the Bible, women and men have certain roles when it comes to the family and household structure. Also, no where does it imply that women are in sin for working or earning income. Second, my wife would be thrilled if I told her that she didn't have to work anymore and that she could stay home and be a house wife.And I am in charge of all the finance because I choose to be and that's okay with her. You have no idea how my marriage works so please don't attempt to use it as an example. It's such a shame that you have such an inaccurate understanding of Christianity and the Bible, Cobra. It probably explains your hatred for it to begin with. Also, I'm not beating anyone over the head with anything. Nor have I ever done that. All I've ever done was state my stance and the reason for it on this issue. I was met with claims if being a bigot, ignorant, and uneducated. That, my friends is persecution. And no one's crying, I was simply stating that I'm quite used to this type of response when it comes to my beliefs. Cobra, you're wrong. Just like so many other "free thinkers", you take the easy road and cite radical groups to support your claims. That can be done with any argument over any group over any topic. And you saying that the "majority" of Christians are hypocritical bigots is insulting and also incorrect. The one's you've encountered or chose to incorrectly speak on behalf of don't account for the majority. Some of the most educated people on the face of this Earth are Christians or subscribe to some sort of religion. Also again, Cobra, Homosexuality DID in fact carry over to the Old Testament. If not, then you wouldn't be having this conversation with me right now. Once again, failure to understand something you claim to know so much about. My take on this is that what I believe is right or wrong should not be hinged with weather people are given equal rights. Me simply not agreeing with that lifestyle isn't the same as me saying that people shouldn't have equal right. Those are two ideologies that the government has put together and told people to vote on. And that's why I'd refuse to vote on that issue at all. Because I don't think that one has to agree with homosexuality to say that people deserve equal rights. But as long as those two ideals are taken to be one in the same, which they aren't, you won't see me making any sort of vote on it. People should be able to marry whomever they choose, but I still don't think it's right if they are the same sex. So if I voted for that, I'd be a hypocrite myself, as I'd be advocating something I don't agree with. And THAT is only because the government saw fit to place that power into other people's hands, which I also disagree with. Dexter Morgan hit it right on the head with how I feel.
|
|
|
Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on May 13, 2012 12:32:11 GMT -5
Where does it even say that? Please, if you can properly reference it, don't cite scripture. Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."You said yourself that the laws from the Old Testament did not carry over to the New Testament, which is true. Who's picking and choosing now?
|
|