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Post by Word™ on Jun 14, 2016 23:56:38 GMT -5
That's because guns are almost impossible to get in Chicago. You still did not answer the question I posed. If these guns are such a problem, why is it that where those guns are legal they are not having the same problems that they have in Chicago? Seems like the whole "Gun Free Zone" thing at work. So an attack coordinated by a supposed ISIS sympathizer is completely different than an attack coordinated by a sleeper cell? Both are acts of terrorism. 1994-2004 (the Clinton Ban) is a valid argument. Those firearms were available during that time, and crime statistics showed NOTHING that they deterred crime over the 10 year span of the law. States like NY have continued the Clinton Era ban and made it worse for citizens, yet it has had no effect what so ever on crime. Also, please stop using the term "Assault Rifle" as you are using it in the incorrect context. A real Assault Rifle is capable of select fire and they have been HEAVILY regulated since 1934. The political term you use is to scare people into thinking that a rifle is more lethal because of the features of it. Truth be told, a semi-auto rifle is as deadly as an AR-15.. only difference is one looks scary. Look into the FBI Crime stats for 2014, 3% of all gun related deaths were from rifles. This includes "Assault Rifles", shotguns, hunting rifles and lever action rifles. Please tell me again how banning "Assault Rifles" will solve the problem. You take one right away, you're going to lose the whole thing. There is no reason for me to have a car that goes over 70MPH, there is no reason for me to have Fire Extinguishers in my house, there is no reason for me to shower once a day. Just because you can't see the reason doesn't mean that it's not there. You are honestly part of the problem. What we in the industry call a FUDD. All you worry about is your hunting rifles thinking "Oh, they'll never try to ban these". Well I hate to tell you this Chief, it'd be only a matter of time before your Hunting Rifle becomes branded a "sniper rifle" and they go after that. An attack on the second amendment is an attack on EVERY gun owner. The Second Amendment isn't about hunting. It's about being able to defend yourself, your family and your loved ones. It's about personal responsibility. It's about defending the beliefs that our forefathers laid out when they took this land back from an oppressive government and said "Never again" Any thing i say, any facts i post, you wont believe..So i'm not gonna reply to this nonsense anymore, because i know it'll only end up with you or someone else banning me. That's hypocritical.
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Post by TheLastDude on Jun 15, 2016 0:19:50 GMT -5
Okay aside from the Jim Jefferies bit, here's where I stand on guns. If you disagree, cool. I'm not looking to get into a big debate about it, because in the end, no matter what any of us think, the world is going to keep turning and bad will still happen to good people. Anyways, I'm not a gun person. Now, I've shot them. I've owned them. But they don't really appeal to me and I don't understand why people lose their minds over their guns. I understand having one for protection. That is your total and complete right. But for protection, you don't need a military grade weapon. You're not fighting ISIS when a guy busts into your house for your TV. Unfortunately, and this is just personal experience here, people I see think "gun control" means " you, we're taking away your guns." They proceed to get all worked up and threaten this and that. Listen -- WE NEED GUN CONTROL. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO WALTZ INTO A GUN STORE AND BUY A RIFLE IN UNDER 10 MINUTES. I believe we as a nation need stricter laws to prevent people with histories of violence and crime and god forbid what else from getting their hands on guns. If you need a gun, it, go for it. Own it. Go out to the range and blast some targets or whatever. But don't even start crying about gun control and "oh no THEY'RE TAKING AWAY MY RIGHTS" and all that other bull when you know damn well that's not what they're doing. There comes a time when people need to stop being dickheads to one another and shooting them. Basically, I don't like guns, 90% of this forum will probably be quoting this post and bitching at me, and we need stricter laws. Yeah, that's where I stand. If this doesn't make sense, blame it on finals and sleep deprivation. Or don't. Just call me dumb. I'm not going to debate you, but I'm going to give you my point of view on this issue. I can understand the point of view that larger guns are overkill. A good reliable shotgun works just as well for home protection if you know how to use it and aren't facing someone who is better armed than you are. Now, I will preface this next part by saying that I am not a conspiracy theorist. I don't believe that the moon landing, 9/11, and Sandy Hook were government conspiracies....but I'm also not naive enough to believe that our elected officials don't lie to us. There are a lot of people who WOULD completely strip us of our right to own ALL firearms if they could drum up enough support. Why do you think there were so many talking heads jumping on the gun control soap box right away? The wound is raw so the time to strike is before the bandage is placed...maybe if they get there fast enough people will say "huh, maybe they're right...we should ban guns and then this won't happen again." They know that many people aren't going to sit and think about the fact that when you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have them. That's why people get tricked into buying something at 2 for 5 dollars when single price is $2.50. People don't want to do the math. I cannot speak for all gun owners (of which there are many nutbags, there's no denying that)...but RESPONSIBLE gun owners would most likely all agree that there needs to be a system of checks and balances in place for who may and may not purchase firearms of any kind. There definitely needs to be a background check and a waiting period. No sale of a gun of ANY kind should take a few minutes. That's risky in the utmost. The simple fact of the matter is that when you start to let your freedoms be chipped away, it's not going to be long before you look back and realize they're ALL gone. The old saying goes that the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. I definitely don't think you're dumb either.
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Post by HR2X on Jun 15, 2016 22:45:34 GMT -5
Okay aside from the Jim Jefferies bit, here's where I stand on guns. If you disagree, cool. I'm not looking to get into a big debate about it, because in the end, no matter what any of us think, the world is going to keep turning and bad will still happen to good people. Anyways, I'm not a gun person. Now, I've shot them. I've owned them. But they don't really appeal to me and I don't understand why people lose their minds over their guns. I understand having one for protection. That is your total and complete right. But for protection, you don't need a military grade weapon. You're not fighting ISIS when a guy busts into your house for your TV. Unfortunately, and this is just personal experience here, people I see think "gun control" means " you, we're taking away your guns." They proceed to get all worked up and threaten this and that. Listen -- WE NEED GUN CONTROL. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO WALTZ INTO A GUN STORE AND BUY A RIFLE IN UNDER 10 MINUTES. I believe we as a nation need stricter laws to prevent people with histories of violence and crime and god forbid what else from getting their hands on guns. If you need a gun, it, go for it. Own it. Go out to the range and blast some targets or whatever. But don't even start crying about gun control and "oh no THEY'RE TAKING AWAY MY RIGHTS" and all that other bull when you know damn well that's not what they're doing. There comes a time when people need to stop being dickheads to one another and shooting them. Basically, I don't like guns, 90% of this forum will probably be quoting this post and bitching at me, and we need stricter laws. Yeah, that's where I stand. If this doesn't make sense, blame it on finals and sleep deprivation. Or don't. Just call me dumb. Here is my issue with your argument.. Every firearm purchased through a valid dealer undergoes a NICS check. This is a background check run by the FBI. If for the purchase of a firearm, the FEDERAL BUREAU of INVESTIGATION is clearing you every time, then why do we need stricter "gun control" as you say it? Wouldn't part of the problem fall on the FBI? I mean, in this instance, they failed twice. They had this guy under investigation and couldn't find enough to charge him and then they still allowed him to be able to purchase a gun. (Dealers do not get any information if a person gets delayed or denied on their NICS check, that is strictly FBI intel) So please, tell me how more "gun control" as you put it would help? Sounds like the Fed is failing to me.
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Post by slappy on Jun 16, 2016 11:40:54 GMT -5
Time for the UK to get tough on guns.
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Post by J12 on Jun 16, 2016 13:05:14 GMT -5
Man, I take issue with people screaming about "rights" and "freedoms" when it comes to their guns, and then in the same breath, promoting their negative stance against homosexuals and touting their willingness to be an active participant in their societal suppression. I've seen a lot of that in the last several days, virtually everywhere. Immensely hypocritical.
On the subject of gun control, I don't own guns, I've never fired a gun, I'm not sure I care to. I don't particularly like being around them. I also come from an area where crime is minimal and I've never felt a need to have that sort of protection. With that being said, I understand why people own them, I understand why people want to protect their right to own them. I'm fine with all of that. The only area I take issue with is the immense ease with which people in this country are able to legally obtain firearms. I understand criminals are going to get them however they're going to get them, but that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility of at least trying to prevent weapons from landing into the lap of unstable, violent people. It should not be easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. They're both deadly weapons in their own right. I should not, with the knowledge at hand that I've never fired a gun before, be able to walk into an arms dealer down the street and walk out with a semi-automatic weapon fifteen minutes later. I just can't concoct a valid argument in favor of such a lax policy.
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HARLAND
Mid-Carder
SILENCE IS VIOLENCE!
Joined on: Apr 21, 2016 10:15:28 GMT -5
Posts: 475
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Post by HARLAND on Jun 16, 2016 16:26:00 GMT -5
Trevor Noah says everything I want to say about this much better than me.
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Post by theMOESIAH on Jun 16, 2016 20:28:19 GMT -5
Because if more people had guns, no one would ever get shot, right? I never said that, but obviously gun free zones dont work right? This was in Florida, who had some of the loosest gun laws in the country. It didn't help because real life is not like an action movie. In real life bad guy with gun + good guy with gun doesn't always equal the good guy wins.
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Post by theMOESIAH on Jun 16, 2016 20:30:36 GMT -5
The fact that some people in this world still have issues with gay people is just ridiculous. How does someone being gay bother anyone else?? It shouldn't, plain and simple. The sad thing is, that probably a year from now we will hear of something like this happening all over again. It never goes away. Any sort of mass shooting or terrorism will always be there, and I know everyone always says the "pray for *insert tragedy here*" after every bad thing that happens, but why can't people just remember that and move on and not do any more bad things?? It's just a sad state of affairs. Well you also have to remember that Islam is a "religion" that believes that being Gay is punishable by death. Come out being Gay to a Christian, they'll preach to you that you're wrong and some may call you names. Come out as being gay in Iran, you'll be stoned and/or hanged. But hey, open boarder cause the old people in the bible belt are awful people. Yeah things are all well and good if you're a member of any of the off-shoots of Catholicism, unless of course you are a young boy. In which case, you're on your own. EDIT: Also... Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV) 13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. But yeah, Islam is clearly the only violent "religion."
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Post by theMOESIAH on Jun 16, 2016 20:32:54 GMT -5
Well, what WERE you trying to say? You obviously meant to say something. The security guard had a gun and exchanged gunfire with the shooter. It didn't seem to help. What is INSANE is that this guy, who had been investigated twice for terrorist ties, still can just go and buy an automatic weapon. NOBODY in the U.S. has any need to be buying automatic weapons. Yet, so we can be proud of our "freedom", we let horrible hateful losers arm themselves and hurt others, over and over again. Gun Free Zones dont work. This shooting didn't happen in a gun-free zone, so what's your point?
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Post by theMOESIAH on Jun 16, 2016 20:40:29 GMT -5
For the record, I a not a gun owner and I never plan on owning one. But the reason we have the 2nd amendment goes a lot deeper than protecting your home.. Our founding fathers actually implemented our right to bare arms to not only protect our home, but to protect our homeland.. To help prevent a complete government takeover of the people. We are so far beyond that now. The United States military is the most technologically advanced killing machine the world has ever known. To keep the playing field even, are you suggesting that citizens be allowed to purchase things like nuclear warheads?
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Post by Word™ on Jun 16, 2016 20:56:31 GMT -5
For the record, I a not a gun owner and I never plan on owning one. But the reason we have the 2nd amendment goes a lot deeper than protecting your home.. Our founding fathers actually implemented our right to bare arms to not only protect our home, but to protect our homeland.. To help prevent a complete government takeover of the people. We are so far beyond that now. The United States military is the most technologically advanced killing machine the world has ever known. To keep the playing field even, are you suggesting that citizens be allowed to purchase things like nuclear warheads? Don't be absurd.
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Post by theMOESIAH on Jun 16, 2016 21:06:17 GMT -5
We are so far beyond that now. The United States military is the most technologically advanced killing machine the world has ever known. To keep the playing field even, are you suggesting that citizens be allowed to purchase things like nuclear warheads? Don't be absurd. I'm being 100% serious. Do you think your pistols and semi-automatic rifles will do anything against our military? They can kill you from hundreds of miles away. Technological advancements have rendered the second amendment obsolete.
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Post by Word™ on Jun 16, 2016 21:14:40 GMT -5
I'm being 100% serious. Do you think your pistols and semi-automatic rifles will do anything against our military? They can kill you from hundreds of miles away. Technological advancements have rendered the second amendment obsolete. You gotta remember who SERVES in the military.. American citizens.. With family and friends that live throughout the United States. You also underestimate what people are capable of.. Drone strikes are meaningless when you have hackers that can shut down the grid.. If we ever went into a full scale revolution, I don't expect advanced technology to play that key of a role.
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Post by GBGav on Jun 16, 2016 21:31:14 GMT -5
Read an interesting quote today by someone I don't know, but it was shared by my favourite musician which is how I came across it.
"Since zero women and zero people of colour weighed in when the US constitution was written, I assume it may occasionally need updates."
Which brings me to something obvious yet a lot of people simply don't get it. Amendment. It literally means a change to an original law or contract. The second amendment is not a divine right to be left untouched forever. If modern day happenings require it, then why can't it be amended again? The first amendment is absolutely fine and there would be no logical reason to ever change that. Free speech and all that is an absolute right. Owning a lethal weapon, not so much. I'm not actually against anyone owning a personal handgun/pistol. If it is indeed for self protection then 6/12/whatever rounds is sufficient to potentially defend yourself from a home intruder. Do you really need a semi automatic high powered rifle with God knows how many boxes of ammo tucked away? In that intruder situation I'd bet that shooting a pistol from the hip would be quicker than aiming with a rifle in such close quarters anyway.
I honestly, as a Brit, don't know what to suggest specifically to tighten ways of selling guns or amending laws. I'm just throwing some common sense out there. Some kind of change has got to be better than just letting things be. Right?
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Post by Nivro™ on Jun 16, 2016 21:38:38 GMT -5
Well you also have to remember that Islam is a "religion" that believes that being Gay is punishable by death. Come out being Gay to a Christian, they'll preach to you that you're wrong and some may call you names. Come out as being gay in Iran, you'll be stoned and/or hanged. But hey, open boarder cause the old people in the bible belt are awful people. Yeah things are all well and good if you're a member of any of the off-shoots of Catholicism, unless of course you are a young boy. In which case, you're on your own. EDIT: Also... Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV) 13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. But yeah, Islam is clearly the only violent "religion." Feel free to link me to sites, news clippings of homosexuals being killed by Christians in the name of Christianity. Id love to read them/it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 21:39:44 GMT -5
Well this seems out of hand.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 21:40:04 GMT -5
Read an interesting quote today by someone I don't know, but it was shared by my favourite musician which is how I came across it. "Since zero women and zero people of colour weighed in when the US constitution was written, I assume it may occasionally need updates." Which brings me to something obvious yet a lot of people simply don't get it. Amendment. It literally means a change to an original law or contract. The second amendment is not a divine right to be left untouched forever. If modern day happenings require it, then why can't it be amended again? The first amendment is absolutely fine and there would be no logical reason to ever change that. Free speech and all that is an absolute right. Owning a lethal weapon, not so much. I'm not actually against anyone owning a personal handgun/pistol. If it is indeed for self protection then 6/12/whatever rounds is sufficient to potentially defend yourself from a home intruder. Do you really need a semi automatic high powered rifle with God knows how many boxes of ammo tucked away? In that intruder situation I'd bet that shooting a pistol from the hip would be quicker than aiming with a rifle in such close quarters anyway. I honestly, as a Brit, don't know what to suggest specifically to tighten ways of selling guns or amending laws. I'm just throwing some common sense out there. Some kind of change has got to be better than just letting things be. Right? My only issue with that is when do we get to go back and amend the 14th amendment then?
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Post by theMOESIAH on Jun 16, 2016 21:44:51 GMT -5
Yeah things are all well and good if you're a member of any of the off-shoots of Catholicism, unless of course you are a young boy. In which case, you're on your own. EDIT: Also... Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV) 13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. But yeah, Islam is clearly the only violent "religion." Feel free to link me to sites, news clippings of homosexuals being killed by Christians in the name of Christianity. Id love to read them/it. You first. Give me examples of widespread, decades-long subculture of child ing that was excused, justified and covered up by their church and just accepted by everyone in the religion. I can give you examples of Christians shooting up Planned Parenthood and a black church in an attempt to start a race war, Christian families throwing their gay kids or on the streets to die and I can give multiple examples of Christians allowing their children to suffer horribly and die from easily treatable conditions because they believed in the power of prayer. My point is that you talk as if Islam is the only violent religion, which is absurd.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 21:52:15 GMT -5
Feel free to link me to sites, news clippings of homosexuals being killed by Christians in the name of Christianity. Id love to read them/it. You first. Give me examples of widespread, decades-long subculture of child ing that was excused, justified and covered up by their church and just accepted by everyone in the religion. I can give you examples of Christians shooting up Planned Parenthood and a black church in an attempt to start a race war, Christian families throwing their gay kids or on the streets to die and I can give multiple examples of Christians allowing their children to suffer horribly and die from easily treatable conditions because they believed in the power of prayer. My point is that you talk as if Islam is the only violent religion, which is absurd. I am going to start by saying I agree with you on this 100% In fact I used and quoted the same scripture you did earlier in a facebook debate. I said which god allowed this? The one that allowed it to happen, the one that didn't know or was it the one that said homosexuality should be punished by death? Of course the response I got was "Show me where god is killing homosexuals." So, I quoted the same scripture you did and said that if he condones it he may as well be in the nightclub pulling the trigger himself. I will say this, I have heard horror stories, personally from progressive muslims that have fled their country from the conservative muslims about raping kids that would make your stomach turn. They don't cover it up, the embrace it. The conservative muslims that is. I agree with you though, Islam isnt the only violent religion.
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Post by theMOESIAH on Jun 16, 2016 21:55:55 GMT -5
Yeah things are all well and good if you're a member of any of the off-shoots of Catholicism, unless of course you are a young boy. In which case, you're on your own. EDIT: Also... Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV) 13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. But yeah, Islam is clearly the only violent "religion." Feel free to link me to sites, news clippings of homosexuals being killed by Christians in the name of Christianity. Id love to read them/it. - Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922 - Adolf Hitler in an article in the Völkischer Beobachter, February 29, 1929, on the new Lateran Treaty between Mussolini's fascist government and the Vatican
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