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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Oct 9, 2008 12:22:39 GMT -5
Bret Hart needs to realize things from Shawn Michaels point of view. Shawn Michaels BOSS asked him to do something......why should he have stuck up for Bret Hart? BRET HART WAS LEAVING REGARDLESS! Shawn Michaels was the one who had to stay in the WWF and deal with the consequences of probably being FIRED if he didn't do what Vince said.
The bottom line is that in ALL jobs, you DO WHAT THE BOSS TELLS YOU. Which is why if BRET HART had just agreed to lose the belt the way McMahon wanted, none of this would have had to happen, Bret was leaving anyway and we could have avoided all this screw job nonsense.
Bret Hart put Vince in this situation because he didn't know if he could TRUST Bret with the belt after his WWF contract had expired because so many ex-WWF wrestlers had gone to WCW and disrespected the WWF. Vince was protecting HIS company and HIS Championship.
I don't know when Bret decided he was better than anybody else and didn't have to follow the script. I know he had creative control over his character in the last 30-days of employment, but that was just to protect HIS image in case they tried to J.O.B him out like ECW did with Taz and WWE did with RVD where neither of them won a single match in their last 2 months of employment.
WWF was not trying to ruin Bret by having him lose to HBK. Bret acts like he'd never lost a match or the title before at that point. He was a 5 time WWF Champion, so he'd lost the WWF title 4 times already...losing the match wasn't going to kill him. And he ended up losing anyway, so he could have just avoided all this, agreed to lose the belt, gone to WCW and watched his career piss away under the mismanagement of Eric Bischoff.
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Post by Chicago on Oct 9, 2008 12:25:55 GMT -5
If your brother was killed because of WWE. If your legacy was forever tarnished because of the lies of Vince and HBK you'd be bitter to. Get over it? If he hadn't been screwed over because of Shawn's antics and Vince's need to destroy his stars before they left than Owen wouldn't (imo) been in that stupid costume coming down from the rafters. IF Owen was allowed to leave he wouldn't have gotten killed. Before you say get over it remember what was taken from him, alot more than pride my friends. You make it seem as if it was Vince's fault Owen died. It wasn't. Owen could have said no. He did, but was encouraged to go through with the stunt by Vince McMahon and others. Bret has mentioned before (maybe in his book?) of Owen's fear of heights and how he never would have done the stunt willingly by himself. He sought Bret's advice often on what to do but Bret couldn't single-handedly make decisions for Owen while he was alone in the WWF. Also, if Vince were so confident in the stunt, why didn't he try it out first like he did for Shawn Michaels at WMXII to make sure it was safe? I fully believe Vince and anyone else who supported the reprisal of the Blue Blazer gimmick took part in Owen's death, and none of the blame should be placed on Owen Hart at all. Faulty equipment had a lot to do with it, but I don't think Owen should be blamed for anything that went wrong as he didn't even want to do the stunt in the first place. |
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Post by slappy on Oct 9, 2008 12:29:58 GMT -5
I'm not blaming Owen, I'm just saying he could have said no. No one forced him to go through with it. He could have stood up to Vince and said  off, I'm not doing this. That is a stretch, blaming those who supported bringing the gimmick back for his death. That's out there. Why don't we go all the way back and blame whoever thought of the gimmick, because had they not, there wouldn't have been a Blue Blazer to come down from the rafters. So there, I'll blame whoever that was. |
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Post by Chicago on Oct 9, 2008 12:44:31 GMT -5
I'm not blaming Owen, I'm just saying he could have said no. No one forced him to go through with it. He could have stood up to Vince and said off, I'm not doing this. That is a stretch, blaming those who supported bringing the gimmick back for his death. That's out there. Why don't we go all the way back and blame whoever thought of the gimmick, because had they not, there wouldn't have been a Blue Blazer to come down from the rafters. So there, I'll blame whoever that was. How is it 'out there'? The Blue Blazer gimmick being brought back in 1999 led to Owen's death because of the planned/failed stunt. Owen would never have been falling from the rafters with the Black Hart gimmick. It's the truth, and common sense, and you know that, Slappy. The gimmick should have stayed dead and buried (no pun intended) in the 80's and there was no need for it to be brought back. WWF ed themselves over when they went in a direction other than Owen Hart in a short main event role post-MSJ. They could have made tons off of a storyline involving Bret's brother Owen and Shawn Michaels, the man who (again, storyline) screwed Bret out of the WWF title with Vince McMahon. But, to say that it isn't someone's fault for Owen's death when they supported the gimmick and likely had something to do with the entrance stunt that killed him is just ridiculous. Also, I'm sure it wasn't as easy as just telling Vince to off. Owen didn't want to do the stunt and I believe the only reason he would have is if he were to receive a bonus that would go towards supporting his wife and kids. |
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Oct 9, 2008 12:49:07 GMT -5
You make it seem as if it was Vince's fault Owen died. It wasn't. Owen could have said no. He did, but was encouraged to go through with the stunt by Vince McMahon and others. Bret has mentioned before (maybe in his book?) of Owen's fear of heights and how he never would have done the stunt willingly by himself. He sought Bret's advice often on what to do but Bret couldn't single-handedly make decisions for Owen while he was alone in the WWF. Also, if Vince were so confident in the stunt, why didn't he try it out first like he did for Shawn Michaels at WMXII to make sure it was safe?I fully believe Vince and anyone else who supported the reprisal of the Blue Blazer gimmick took part in Owen's death, and none of the blame should be placed on Owen Hart at all. Faulty equipment had a lot to do with it, but I don't think Owen should be blamed for anything that went wrong as he didn't even want to do the stunt in the first place. A) Owen had done the same stunt a few times, and actually did it live on RAW, all without any problems. B) how do you know that at NO point Vince McMahon didn't try out the stunt himself? Where is the proof that Vince NEVER did that stunt? |
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Post by Iron Man on Oct 9, 2008 12:52:52 GMT -5
I could care less how HBK acted backstage. Him having awesome matches every week/month more than made up for it.
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Post by slappy on Oct 9, 2008 12:53:26 GMT -5
It's out there, because do you honestly think when they brought it back that they thought "Hmm, at a PPV in the future, let's do this stunt." I'm sure they brought it back for a stunt at a PPV. No.
Bret was leaving anyways, so it really doesn't matter.
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Post by Chicago on Oct 9, 2008 13:04:35 GMT -5
He did, but was encouraged to go through with the stunt by Vince McMahon and others. Bret has mentioned before (maybe in his book?) of Owen's fear of heights and how he never would have done the stunt willingly by himself. He sought Bret's advice often on what to do but Bret couldn't single-handedly make decisions for Owen while he was alone in the WWF. Also, if Vince were so confident in the stunt, why didn't he try it out first like he did for Shawn Michaels at WMXII to make sure it was safe?I fully believe Vince and anyone else who supported the reprisal of the Blue Blazer gimmick took part in Owen's death, and none of the blame should be placed on Owen Hart at all. Faulty equipment had a lot to do with it, but I don't think Owen should be blamed for anything that went wrong as he didn't even want to do the stunt in the first place. A) Owen had done the same stunt a few times, and actually did it live on RAW, all without any problems. B) how do you know that at NO point Vince McMahon didn't try out the stunt himself? Where is the proof that Vince NEVER did that stunt? I've never heard of Vince trying the stunt, but is there any proof that he has? And, I know that Owen practiced the stunt before, but was it in the same execution as the Over the Edge stunt would have been (i.e. falling directly to the ring below)? I know for sure that he practiced it months prior, but there was also a large crew nearby that made sure he was perfectly safe and comfortable, no doubt. He was likely being rushed to perform the stunt at the actual ppv, and coupled with nerves, I'm sure it wasn't as relaxed as when the stunt was practiced leading up to the moment he fell. Also, in reference to Slappy's response, Owen was practicing the stunt months before it actually happened (I believe there are pictures out there with him dangling in the air in full costume before Survivor Series 1998 began) so there HAD to have been plans early on for him to do some sort of elaborate stunt. His death was caused by the stunt, which several people likely planned, so if there isn't any connection there, who is to blame? No one and just the equipment that night? I'm not buying it, and others should have been blamed for Owen's death. I'm not saying they should have been charged, just that they aren't free from any accusation in the matter. |
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Post by slappy on Oct 9, 2008 13:06:38 GMT -5
I'm saying is that I doubt the gimmick was brought back for only the stunt. It went well every other time, why would they have had to worry more at the PPV where he died? What circumstance would have made them more worrisome than normal? It was a freak accident that no one could have seen coming.
You are acting like he was pushed.
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Post by T R W on Oct 9, 2008 13:06:41 GMT -5
We all know Michaels was a douchebag. He probably still is. But that doesn't change the fact that he has let this event consume and practically ruin his life. He needs to let go.
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Oct 9, 2008 13:08:02 GMT -5
Owen Hart had done the stunt on Monday Night RAW a few times AND on Sunday Night Heat.
It should not have been that big of a deal doing it at the PPV. Unfortunately something went wrong, either faulty equipment or Owen accidental hit the release....it was a tragedy NO DOUBT. But unfortunately, ACCIDENTS HAPPEN.
It's not like Owen was doing this for the first time at the PPV. He had done it on TV numerous times ,and I'm sure they practiced. it was just an accident.
Jesus,.....some people act like Vince brought back the Blue Blazer gimmick PURPOSELY TO KILL OWEN. Please, guys....let's grow up.
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Post by Chicago on Oct 9, 2008 13:13:33 GMT -5
I'm saying is that I doubt the gimmick was brought back for only the stunt. It went well every other time, why would they have had to worry more at the PPV where he died? What circumstance would have made them more worrisome than normal? It was a freak accident that no one could have seen coming. You are acting like he was pushed. Not physically pushed, but coerced in some way to change his decision from not feeling comfortable doing it to going along with the stunt despite his uneasiness towards it. Again, I have no proof one way or the other EXACTLY how he felt in those last few months of his life, but I'll believe what Bret said regarding Owen at the time and he (Owen) originally didn't support the idea of the stunt. Obviously, Vince found some way to change his mind, but the stunt never should have taken place to begin with, even if Owen had survived. Edit: I'm not trying to insinuate that Vince WANTED to kill Owen, as I would hope that idea could never, ever be presented as a possibility. Just that, after everything was said and done, Owen's life was cut short because of a pointless stunt that was never needed nor was the gimmick, in the grand scheme of things. He could have been pushed (or not, and eventually released) as regular Owen Hart and he could still be alive today. It was a freak accident, but an accident that could have been prevented entirely if the gimmick had never been brought back. |
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Post by slappy on Oct 9, 2008 13:17:32 GMT -5
It was a freak accident. Look at how many times Sting has done it, look at how many times Owen did it before his death. It was an accident and you can't blame anyone for it. It was an accident. You are acting like when he died was the first time he ever did the stunt.
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Oct 9, 2008 13:29:40 GMT -5
I'm saying is that I doubt the gimmick was brought back for only the stunt. It went well every other time, why would they have had to worry more at the PPV where he died? What circumstance would have made them more worrisome than normal? It was a freak accident that no one could have seen coming. You are acting like he was pushed. Not physically pushed, but coerced in some way to change his decision from not feeling comfortable doing it to going along with the stunt despite his uneasiness towards it. Again, I have no proof one way or the other EXACTLY how he felt in those last few months of his life, but I'll believe what Bret said regarding Owen at the time and he (Owen) originally didn't support the idea of the stunt. Obviously, Vince found some way to change his mind, but the stunt never should have taken place to begin with, even if Owen had survived. Edit: I'm not trying to insinuate that Vince WANTED to kill Owen, as I would hope that idea could never, ever be presented as a possibility. Just that, after everything was said and done, Owen's life was cut short because of a pointless stunt that was never needed nor was the gimmick, in the grand scheme of things. He could have been pushed (or not, and eventually released) as regular Owen Hart and he could still be alive today. It was a freak accident, but an accident that could have been prevented entirely if the gimmick had never been brought back. Under your logic, the inventor of the automobile is the largest MASS MURDERER in history. Thousands of people today are going to DIE in car accidents. FREAK ACCIDENTS. The bottom line is that Owen had done the stunt before. People like Sting in other companies had done the stunt before. People who say that Owen was "uneasy about doing the stunt, almost like he knew something was going to happen"...you people are just creating ghost tales.....Owen had done the stunt before. There's no reason why this time should have been any different than the numerous times in the past he had done it. Hind sight is 20/20.....all the times the stunt went correctly, nobody said "hey, that's not safe, he shouldn't be doing that!"....but the ONE TIME in the history of pro wrestling that it goes wrong, certain people are trying to start some conspiracy like Vince sent him up there on purpose or "rushed him". The bottom line is nobody knows the facts except the people who were involved. And BRET HART is the last person I would believe because he wasn't in the building, he wasn't in the STATE,....he was on an AIRPLANE at the time, so BRET HART of all people has the LEAST first hand knowledge of the situation of ANYBODY. |
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missedgehead
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jun 14, 2008 22:24:41 GMT -5
Posts: 3,178
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Post by missedgehead on Oct 9, 2008 13:59:04 GMT -5
Owen, like others here have said, died tragically in a freak accident. I understand that Bret is upset. He will never see Owen again. I understand his being upset with Vince about THAT. I understand that. The death of a family member under Vince's watch is something Bret has every right to be upset about. That I GET.
What I DON'T sympathize with Bret with is his constant burying everyone on the roster and his hatred that he evidently still has for HHH and HBK. He has this attitude that he thinks he is the ONLY one who has ever had great matches. Whatever. Yeah, Flair, HHH, Edge,HBK, Taker.....sure they NEVER had great matches. Whatever. I would take what he says seriously if he were not so bitter towards the past. I would take him seriously if he just would try to let some things go and not bash HBK so much. HBK was a jerk then......he is a changed man now. Let it go Bret.
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Hollywood QJD
Main Eventer
Awesome Enters
Joined on: Aug 27, 2008 15:03:06 GMT -5
Posts: 4,040
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Post by Hollywood QJD on Oct 9, 2008 14:01:30 GMT -5
A decade has passed, and Bret is STILL complaining? What a Whiner-Baby.
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Revelation O'Deeves
Superstar
The Man Called Sting...
Joined on: Jan 21, 2007 20:53:50 GMT -5
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Post by Revelation O'Deeves on Oct 9, 2008 14:20:21 GMT -5
When does Hart's book come to the States if its not here already???
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madness1
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 31, 2007 10:26:16 GMT -5
Posts: 2,023
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Post by madness1 on Oct 9, 2008 15:03:09 GMT -5
Owen, like others here have said, died tragically in a freak accident. I understand that Bret is upset. He will never see Owen again. I understand his being upset with Vince about THAT. I understand that. The death of a family member under Vince's watch is something Bret has every right to be upset about. That I GET. What I DON'T sympathize with Bret with is his constant burying everyone on the roster and his hatred that he evidently still has for HHH and HBK. He has this attitude that he thinks he is the ONLY one who has ever had great matches. Whatever. Yeah, Flair, HHH, Edge,HBK, Taker.....sure they NEVER had great matches. Whatever. I would take what he says seriously if he were not so bitter towards the past. I would take him seriously if he just would try to let some things go and not bash HBK so much. HBK was a jerk then......he is a changed man now. Let it go Bret. Bret complaining about the roster, you have a problem with that  Not that I'm saying the WHOLE roster is bad but I think everyone agrees the WWE has been in the creative dumps for a long time now. Look at the ratings and ppv buys, the proof is there. One would be hard pressed to find a former wrestler to say anything good about the WWE. The only great chemistry they have is the old timers, Shawn and Taker building great matches with Jericho and Edge. Again alot of blame goes to the writers and Vince. There is no great champion anymore. Cena is the closest and he is hated as much as he is loved. |
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Oct 9, 2008 15:09:53 GMT -5
Ok look....let's be TOTALLY HONEST here. Bret Hart is a good wrester in comparison to HIS TIME and the YEARS that he was in wrestling.
By today's standards, Bret Hart would NOT be thought of as a LEGEND. Bret Hart did a vertical suplex, a side Russian leg sweep, an atomic drop, an elbow off the 2nd rope, and his finisher was the sharpshooter. That's pretty much it. Bret Hart was the "John Cena" of the 90's...and even Cena has more moves and more of his moves are HIGH IMPACT.
The only thing that made Bret Hart look so good back in the day was that all the other guys did even LESS in the ring. (Savage, Hogan, Nash, Undertaker, Flair, Bundy, Yokozuna).
Bret Hart couldn't wrestle his way out of a paper bag compared to people like Lance Storm, Chris Jericho, Jerry Lynn, Taz, Shawn Michaels.
Like I said, Bret Hart just looked amazing in comparison to the slug-like main eventers of the late-80's - early-90's.
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Post by WalterF on Oct 9, 2008 15:10:32 GMT -5
Okay, my two favorite wrestlers are HBK, and Bret Hart as odd as that is so I have gone back-and-forth with the issue.
I have watched every shoot interview both ever did, I've read every book on it, I've pretty much watched, listened and read most or all of the information there is available on the subject of those two.
My conclusion is, to be honest and totally unbiased, after looking at both sides of the story, that Bret started the whole thing and really is the one who made it so heated. Bret was the first guy to go to the dirt sheets and write articles bashing HBK, and for a while HBK never said a word back.
I'm not saying HBK was mr.innocent because he could be a jerk and didn't always put the business infront of his own personal wants, but Bret started the whole thing and made it go as far as it went.
Bret Hart REFUSED to lose to HBK at Survivor Series. You don't refuse to lose to anybody, at the end of the day, it should be Vince or whoever that decides. It sucks that it happened, but Bret really did make his own bed ... and I am a huge Bret mark, he's right up there with HBK as my favorite.
It's funny that to this day Bret Hart will call Shawn Michaels a lying piece of dogsh-t and a gay or whatever else and HBK doesn't call Bret a thing.
How on earth is Bret able to reconcile with Vince, but still, til no end bash HBK? It doesn't make any sense except that I believe Bret always had a jealousy of HBK, that's why he started all the sh-t he started, and he'll never let it go because beyond the screwjob, beyond all the details, Bret ended up being pushed out to WCW, where his career went to hell and then forced into retirement while HBK came back as a legend in WWE and is still headlining events.
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sig credit to Focalin
