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Post by Mr. PerpetuaLynch Motion on May 11, 2010 18:41:51 GMT -5
BANE I gotta say that while I am not in the least bit a fan of your religion at all (It's a personal preference thing) I have endless respect for your ability to intelligently defend it. In fact I give tremendous kudos to everyone involved in this discussion. Considering the differing opinions I have to say it is outstanding how this has been an intelligent 12 page debate minus that minor hickup with that arnanderson guy. Keep it up because I am loving reading all this.
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Post by bane on May 11, 2010 18:56:53 GMT -5
BANE I gotta say that while I am not in the least bit a fan of your religion at all (It's a personal preference thing) I have endless respect for your ability to intelligently defend it. In fact I give tremendous kudos to everyone involved in this discussion. Considering the differing opinions I have to say it is outstanding how this has been an intelligent 12 page debate minus that minor hickup with that arnanderson guy. Keep it up because I am loving reading all this. Thanks so much Mr. Perpetual. That is the first time on one of these friendly debates that someone has said that to me. I usually called a cultist etc. And you know the internet community...All they do is mock mock mock.
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StingerSplash
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Post by StingerSplash on May 11, 2010 18:59:59 GMT -5
BANE I gotta say that while I am not in the least bit a fan of your religion at all (It's a personal preference thing) I have endless respect for your ability to intelligently defend it. In fact I give tremendous kudos to everyone involved in this discussion. Considering the differing opinions I have to say it is outstanding how this has been an intelligent 12 page debate minus that minor hickup with that arnanderson guy. Keep it up because I am loving reading all this. Same here. BANE and I clearly have different opinions on things, but he is very knowledgable in his beliefs. I have nothing but the utmost respect for BANE, and for everyone who has participated in this thread. It has been a great discussion, and I look forward to more..
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 11, 2010 19:11:43 GMT -5
Jesus is so much more than just an Angel. He is God in flesh.
I'll go back to Isaiah again since you haven't responded to it. All quotes are from the RSV since that's what you referenced. I'm more than happy to reference whatever translation you want to reference.
Isa 3:5 - A voice cries out: ‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Now, we know that when the word Lord is used in the OT it is a direct reference to Jehovah. So Isaiah prophecies of John the Baptist that he will prepare the way of Jehovah and make straight in the desert a highway for Jehovah.
How do we know this is a prophecy of John? Simple. He (John) says as much in John 1:23 - "He [John] said, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, `Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."
So John is the forerunner of Jehovah. Yet he (John) says in John 3:28 - "You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him. "
Is John the forerunner of Jehovah or is he the forerunner of Christ? He clearly claims to be both. Which is it? Or are Jehovah and Christ the same?
Isaiah 9:6 refers to Jesus as the mighty god. Isaiah 35:4-6 says "Say to those who are of a fearful heart, ‘Be strong, do not fear! Here is your God. He will come with vengeance, with terrible recompense. He will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the speechless sing for joy."
The emphasis here is mine, but Isaiah is prophesying to the Jews here. Their God (Jehovah) will come and open the eyes of the blind, the ears of the deaf, etc..... Jesus claimed this scripture was referring to him in Luke 7:22.
1 Cor 3:16 - Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
Eph 3:17 - and that Christ may dwell in your hearts
So God's Spirit dwells in us and Christ dwells in us as well? or are they the same?
I referenced 1 Timothy 3:16 earlier. I'll include 3:15 here as well for clarity - if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great: He was revealed in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.
Verse 16 is in bold here and it's clear that the He in verse 16 is referencing God. God (Jehovah) was revealed in flesh, vindicated in spirit, etc.......
Jesus is God in flesh. You've mentioned John 1:18 several times and for some reason I just now looked up the whole verse. I didn't realize you'd only been quoting part of it. The whole verse says - No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
So, it's clear. When you see Jesus, you see the revelation of the God of the Old Testament. Jesus has a dual nature of both flesh and deity. When you see Jesus (the flesh) you see the reflection of God (Hebrews 1:1-3). He is the image of God (Col 1:15, 2 Cor 4:4)
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StingerSplash
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Post by StingerSplash on May 11, 2010 19:22:24 GMT -5
So you guys are telling me that there is a man that lives in the sky, who can see and here everything we do? And if were bad he's going to send us to hell so we can be tortured until the end of time? But he loves us. I respect your right to be religous but know that you're wrong. stop being a child. Actually no. Hell doesn't exist in the Bible. IF God is all loving etc..He is a God of Justice too. Then the two traits of his personality rule out burning a soul forever in a hell. Jeremiah 7:31 Ezekial 18:4 Dr. Hulk, Jesus was the first thing Jehovah created. Colossians 1:15 He is basically the first angel. The archangel Micheal. On the subject of Hell, check out Jesus' parable of the Wicked Servant in Matthew 25. I've only included verses 25-31 for context. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.' 26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. 28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' Jesus here, as he frequently did, explained the punishment for not following him. You see, the talent is representing the life and the opportunity God has given us. The other two servants (if you read the preceding verses) used their talents and produced. The third servant, however, hid his talent so he wouldn't damage it. (Jesus is implying that he didn't take hold of the opportunity) The Master (God) tosses out the Wicked Servant. The description of 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' is an allusion to Hell. John also sees Hell, or the Second Death in his vision in Revelation. See: Revelation 20: 7-10 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. John is saying that the followers of Satan, and the ungodly, unholy, and nonbelievers will be cast into the lake of sulfur (Hell). These people are tormented forever and ever, while the people of God are rewarded with Heaven. 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place." While it is describing the throne of God and the Lamb, one can assume that the Lamb is Jesus, but Jesus is God as well if you read on down the chapter: 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." 17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Also, notice how Jesus mentions the Spirit. This again alludes to the Trinity, as God, Jesus, and the Spirt are all mentioned and alluded to. This would lead one to believe that God is three-in-one, because why would the Lamb, and the Spirt have such power if they were not God? Also, it clearly shows that Jesus has posession and is master over the Angles in verse 16. Now, shouldn't only God refer to the Angels as 'His Angel?' And, if Jesus is an Archangel, he still would not have power over the Angels because he would be one of them. This is just another example of Jesus' being God.
The final example in Revelation that Jesus is God is in Revelation 20: 22. John refers to Jesus as 'Lord Jesus.' Who other than God would John refer to as 'Lord.'
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Dr. Hulk, Jesus was the first thing Jehovah created. Colossians 1:15 He is basically the first angel. The archangel Micheal.
Colossians 1:15 (NLT) Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
If Jesus was merely a creation, why would he exist before ANYTHING was created. Also, he is supreme over all creation. This again leads me back to John.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understooda it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.b
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,c nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Word, who John just referred to as God in verse 1, became flesh. This clearly states that Jesus (who was God) became in human form and still was God.
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Post by bane on May 11, 2010 19:45:16 GMT -5
Actually no. Hell doesn't exist in the Bible. IF God is all loving etc..He is a God of Justice too. Then the two traits of his personality rule out burning a soul forever in a hell. Jeremiah 7:31 Ezekial 18:4 Dr. Hulk, Jesus was the first thing Jehovah created. Colossians 1:15 He is basically the first angel. The archangel Micheal. On the subject of Hell, check out Jesus' parable of the Wicked Servant in Matthew 25. I've only included verses 25-31 for context. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.' 26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. 28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' Jesus here, as he frequently did, explained the punishment for not following him. You see, the talent is representing the life and the opportunity God has given us. The other two servants (if you read the preceding verses) used their talents and produced. The third servant, however, hid his talent so he wouldn't damage it. (Jesus is implying that he didn't take hold of the opportunity) The Master (God) tosses out the Wicked Servant. The description of 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' is an allusion to Hell. John also sees Hell, or the Second Death in his vision in Revelation. See: Revelation 20: 7-10 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. John is saying that the followers of Satan, and the ungodly, unholy, and nonbelievers will be cast into the lake of sulfur (Hell). These people are tormented forever and ever, while the people of God are rewarded with Heaven. 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place." While it is describing the throne of God and the Lamb, one can assume that the Lamb is Jesus, but Jesus is God as well if you read on down the chapter: 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I feel as if I have answered this question by Dr. Hulk. Let's go with Stingersplash this time for some new material. Remember what I said before. If God is love, then roasting someone for an eternity is not love. Nor is it justice. If I sin for 30 years on Earth. Say I am Hitler. It still is not justice to burn for all eternity for only 30 years of wrongdoing. Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain? Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish. (Notice his thoughts perish. To be burning and experiencing pain you have to have conscience thought) This raises the question: Did Almighty God create such a place of torment? Well, what was God’s view when the Israelites, following the example of peoples who lived nearby, began to burn their children in fire? He explains in his Word: “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.”—Jeremiah 7:31. Can people get out of hell? Consider the case of Jonah. When God had a big fish swallow Jonah to save him from drowning, Jonah prayed from the fish’s belly: “Out of my distress I called out to Jehovah, and he proceeded to answer me. Out of the belly of Sheol [hell, King James Version and Douay Version (2:3)] I cried for help. You heard my voice.”—Jonah 2:2. What did Jonah mean by “out of the belly of hell”? Well, that fish’s belly was surely not a place of fiery torment. But it could have become Jonah’s grave. In fact, Jesus Christ said regarding himself: “Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.”—Matthew 12:40 ARE we to believe Jesus Christ was in hell? IF hell is a burning fiery place, why was Jesus there for three days? What, then, is “the lake of fire” mentioned in the Bible book of Revelation? It has a meaning similar to that of Gehenna. It means not conscious torment but everlasting death, or destruction. Notice how the Bible itself says this at Revelation 20:14: “And death and Hades [hell, King James Version and Douay Version] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” Yes, the lake of fire means “second death,” the death from which there is no resurrection. It is evident that this “lake” is a symbol, because death and hell (Hades) are thrown into it. Death and hell cannot literally be burned. But they can, and will, be done away with, or destroyed.
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Post by Tom Baker's Scarf on May 11, 2010 20:01:35 GMT -5
...I label myself "agnostic"
Simply because I don't believe in any form of organized religion but I'm not ruling out any slight chance that a higher power doesn't exist in some shape or form. Perhaps it's a large mass of energy.
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StingerSplash
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Post by StingerSplash on May 11, 2010 20:15:04 GMT -5
On the subject of Hell, check out Jesus' parable of the Wicked Servant in Matthew 25. I've only included verses 25-31 for context. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.' 26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. 28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' Jesus here, as he frequently did, explained the punishment for not following him. You see, the talent is representing the life and the opportunity God has given us. The other two servants (if you read the preceding verses) used their talents and produced. The third servant, however, hid his talent so he wouldn't damage it. (Jesus is implying that he didn't take hold of the opportunity) The Master (God) tosses out the Wicked Servant. The description of 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' is an allusion to Hell. John also sees Hell, or the Second Death in his vision in Revelation. See: Revelation 20: 7-10 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. John is saying that the followers of Satan, and the ungodly, unholy, and nonbelievers will be cast into the lake of sulfur (Hell). These people are tormented forever and ever, while the people of God are rewarded with Heaven. 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place." While it is describing the throne of God and the Lamb, one can assume that the Lamb is Jesus, but Jesus is God as well if you read on down the chapter: 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I feel as if I have answered this question by Dr. Hulk. Let's go with Stingersplash this time for some new material. Remember what I said before. If God is love, then roasting someone for an eternity is not love. Nor is it justice. If I sin for 30 years on Earth. Say I am Hitler. It still is not justice to burn for all eternity for only 30 years of wrongdoing. Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain? Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish. (Notice his thoughts perish. To be burning and experiencing pain you have to have conscience thought) This raises the question: Did Almighty God create such a place of torment? Well, what was God’s view when the Israelites, following the example of peoples who lived nearby, began to burn their children in fire? He explains in his Word: “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.”—Jeremiah 7:31. Can people get out of hell? Consider the case of Jonah. When God had a big fish swallow Jonah to save him from drowning, Jonah prayed from the fish’s belly: “Out of my distress I called out to Jehovah, and he proceeded to answer me. Out of the belly of Sheol [hell, King James Version and Douay Version (2:3)] I cried for help. You heard my voice.”—Jonah 2:2. What did Jonah mean by “out of the belly of hell”? Well, that fish’s belly was surely not a place of fiery torment. But it could have become Jonah’s grave. In fact, Jesus Christ said regarding himself: “Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.”—Matthew 12:40 ARE we to believe Jesus Christ was in hell? IF hell is a burning fiery place, why was Jesus there for three days? What, then, is “the lake of fire” mentioned in the Bible book of Revelation? It has a meaning similar to that of Gehenna. It means not conscious torment but everlasting death, or destruction. Notice how the Bible itself says this at Revelation 20:14: “And death and Hades [hell, King James Version and Douay Version] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” Yes, the lake of fire means “second death,” the death from which there is no resurrection. It is evident that this “lake” is a symbol, because death and hell (Hades) are thrown into it. Death and hell cannot literally be burned. But they can, and will, be done away with, or destroyed. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” —Matthew 12:36-37 Condemnation is spoken of here. This clearly shows some sort of punishment for those who don't follow the Lord. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. —Romans 8:1 Again, those who follow Jesus suffer no condemnation, but what of those who do not? In accordance to those who turn away from God: 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire The dead are raised. This would imply that the dead are not given Heaven or Hell as soon as they die. This section would imply that God raises the dead on that Day, and then judges them. In regards to the unconscious state of the dead, they would be unconscious because God hasn't yet given his judgement upon them. Without God's judgement, they would have recieved neither Heaven or Hell. It clearly states that if anyone's name isn't found, then they are thrown into the lake of fire. In regards to Jesus being in Hell: Jesus Preaching In Hell "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.” (1 Peter 3:18-19) Now those who died before Christ went to the cross went to Hades (Hell). Those who put their faith in God went to one side, where they were comforted. This side was known as Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16:25). Those who did not put their faith in God went to the other side where there was torment (verses 24-25 ). The two sides were separated by a great gulf (verse 26). Those who put their faith in God were in Hades but they weren’t going to stay there forever. David had hope that God would lead him out of Hades when he said: “You will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.” (Acts 2:27) Jesus did not go to Hell to suffer, He paid for our sins completely on the cross (John 19:30). He went to the faithful who were waiting for Him in Abraham’s bosom. They were in prison in the sense that they could not enter heaven until their sins were paid for. Although they had made sacrifices those sacrifices could never take away sin. They were a foreshadowing of Jesus sacrifice on the cross. According to this passage, those who turn to God while in Hell can be freed. However, does that mean that all people turn back to God and are saved? If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. --I John 1:9 John is saying that the only ones who are saved are the ones that admit their sins and repent. Not everyone will do this. This would suggest that only the ones who recommit to God will be saved. The others will be condemned, as shown above.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 11, 2010 20:26:48 GMT -5
I'm sorry Bane, but I don't feel you've answered my question at all.
Is John the Baptist the forerunner of Jehovah or is he the forerunner of Christ? Which God was manifest in the flesh, etc.... in 1 Tim 3?
Jeremiah prophesies of the Messiah in 23:5,6 when he says, "The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’ (Emphasis is mine. The name of this righteous branch from David is Jehovah our righteousness. Yet, this prophecy is of Jesus. How can this be if Jesus is not Jehovah?)
Zechariah 11:12 speaks of the Lord (Jehovah) and says that they weighed his wages as 30 pieces of silver. He says in 12:10 that they will "look upon me whom they have pierced." We know that Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver and was pierced as well.
I mentioned it earlier (and I feel you kind of blew it off) that Paul on Damascus road in Acts 9 was struck blind and cried "Who are you Lord?" He was a devout Jew who would only refer to Jehovah as Lord. The reply he received was, "I am Jesus."
Revelation 22:6 says that the Lord sent his angel to John. The 16th verse of the same chapter says that Jesus sent the angel to John. Did John have multiple angels visit him? Or are the Lord and Jesus one and the same?
Even the Jews recognized that Jesus claimed to be the I AM.
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Post by bane on May 11, 2010 20:41:18 GMT -5
I feel as if I have answered this question by Dr. Hulk. Let's go with Stingersplash this time for some new material. Remember what I said before. If God is love, then roasting someone for an eternity is not love. Nor is it justice. If I sin for 30 years on Earth. Say I am Hitler. It still is not justice to burn for all eternity for only 30 years of wrongdoing. Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain? Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish. (Notice his thoughts perish. To be burning and experiencing pain you have to have conscience thought) This raises the question: Did Almighty God create such a place of torment? Well, what was God’s view when the Israelites, following the example of peoples who lived nearby, began to burn their children in fire? He explains in his Word: “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.”—Jeremiah 7:31. Can people get out of hell? Consider the case of Jonah. When God had a big fish swallow Jonah to save him from drowning, Jonah prayed from the fish’s belly: “Out of my distress I called out to Jehovah, and he proceeded to answer me. Out of the belly of Sheol [hell, King James Version and Douay Version (2:3)] I cried for help. You heard my voice.”—Jonah 2:2. What did Jonah mean by “out of the belly of hell”? Well, that fish’s belly was surely not a place of fiery torment. But it could have become Jonah’s grave. In fact, Jesus Christ said regarding himself: “Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.”—Matthew 12:40 ARE we to believe Jesus Christ was in hell? IF hell is a burning fiery place, why was Jesus there for three days? What, then, is “the lake of fire” mentioned in the Bible book of Revelation? It has a meaning similar to that of Gehenna. It means not conscious torment but everlasting death, or destruction. Notice how the Bible itself says this at Revelation 20:14: “And death and Hades [hell, King James Version and Douay Version] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” Yes, the lake of fire means “second death,” the death from which there is no resurrection. It is evident that this “lake” is a symbol, because death and hell (Hades) are thrown into it. Death and hell cannot literally be burned. But they can, and will, be done away with, or destroyed. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” —Matthew 12:36-37 Condemnation is spoken of here. This clearly shows some sort of punishment for those who don't follow the Lord. I agree. However the punishment doesn't have to be eternal fire for a soul and a person to burn eternally...Where in fact does it say a soul can burn?There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. —Romans 8:1 Again, those who follow Jesus suffer no condemnation, but what of those who do not? In accordance to those who turn away from God: 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire The dead are raised. This would imply that the dead are not given Heaven or Hell as soon as they die. This section would imply that God raises the dead on that Day, and then judges them. In regards to the unconscious state of the dead, they would be unconscious because God hasn't yet given his judgement upon them. Without God's judgement, they would have recieved neither Heaven or Hell. It clearly states that if anyone's name isn't found, then they are thrown into the lake of fire. Why would God judge the dead after just waking up? Romans 6:7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin. That means they have paid for their sins. They are not judged AGAIN for them. So judgement day must mean something else...Consider....What was the punishment of Adam and EVE? A fiery hell? Don't remember that in Genesis. No, they were to die. That's it. And that goes with what I said before about God is Love. Burning forever is not love.
In regards to Jesus being in Hell: Jesus Preaching In Hell "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.” (1 Peter 3:18-19) Now those who died before Christ went to the cross went to Hades (Hell). Those who put their faith in God went to one side, where they were comforted. This side was known as Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16:25). Those who did not put their faith in God went to the other side where there was torment (verses 24-25 ). The two sides were separated by a great gulf (verse 26). Well...that's a MIGHTY big Bosom Abraham has isn't it? Those who put their faith in God were in Hades but they weren’t going to stay there forever. David had hope that God would lead him out of Hades when he said: “You will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.” (Acts 2:27) Now why would God put FAITHFUL David in hell? To burn? No...David was faithful. He was never in hell. Hell is another term for grave.Jesus did not go to Hell to suffer, He paid for our sins completely on the cross (John 19:30). No, Jesus didn't burn in hell for three days. He was DEAD for three days. Bible does not say he was burning for three days.He went to the faithful who were waiting for Him in Abraham’s bosom. They were in prison in the sense that they could not enter heaven until their sins were paid for. Although they had made sacrifices those sacrifices could never take away sin. They were a foreshadowing of Jesus sacrifice on the cross. According to this passage, those who turn to God while in Hell can be freed. However, does that mean that all people turn back to God and are saved? If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. --I John 1:9 Hebrews 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.
John is saying that the only ones who are saved are the ones that admit their sins and repent. Not everyone will do this. This would suggest that only the ones who recommit to God will be saved. The others will be condemned, as shown above. I have already posted Ezekial 18:4 where it says that souls DIE. Not burn forever. Die...Yes souls can die. What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is? Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.” Once you die in this earthly body that is it. You don't go to be punished in hell because you have paid for your sins. After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins? Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not! By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death? Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself. What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
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Post by bane on May 11, 2010 20:43:57 GMT -5
I'm sorry Bane, but I don't feel you've answered my question at all. Is John the Baptist the forerunner of Jehovah or is he the forerunner of Christ? Which God was manifest in the flesh, etc.... in 1 Tim 3? Jeremiah prophesies of the Messiah in 23:5,6 when he says, "The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’ (Emphasis is mine. The name of this righteous branch from David is Jehovah our righteousness. Yet, this prophecy is of Jesus. How can this be if Jesus is not Jehovah?) Zechariah 11:12 speaks of the Lord (Jehovah) and says that they weighed his wages as 30 pieces of silver. He says in 12:10 that they will "look upon me whom they have pierced." We know that Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver and was pierced as well. I mentioned it earlier (and I feel you kind of blew it off) that Paul on Damascus road in Acts 9 was struck blind and cried "Who are you Lord?" He was a devout Jew who would only refer to Jehovah as Lord. The reply he received was, "I am Jesus." Revelation 22:6 says that the Lord sent his angel to John. The 16th verse of the same chapter says that Jesus sent the angel to John. Did John have multiple angels visit him? Or are the Lord and Jesus one and the same? Even the Jews recognized that Jesus claimed to be the I AM. Is Jesus Christ actually God? John 17:3, RS: “[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God [“who alone art truly God,” NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as “the only true God.”) John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (So to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father addressing the Son as “my God.”) See also pages 411, 416, 417, under the heading “Trinity.” Does John 1:1 prove that Jesus is God? John 1:1, RS: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [also KJ, JB, Dy, Kx, NAB].” NE reads “what God was, the Word was.” Mo says “the Logos was divine.” AT and Sd tell us “the Word was divine.” The interlinear rendering of ED is “a god was the Word.” NW reads “the Word was a god”; NTIV uses the same wording. What is it that these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying “the Word was God”? The definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the·os′ (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god. (See 1984 Reference edition of NW, p. 1579.) What did the apostle John mean when he wrote John 1:1? Did he mean that Jesus is himself God or perhaps that Jesus is one God with the Father? In the same chapter, verse 18, John wrote: “No one [“no man,” KJ, Dy] has ever seen God; the only Son [“the only-begotten god,” NW], who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.” (RS) Had any human seen Jesus Christ, the Son? Of course! So, then, was John saying that Jesus was God? Obviously not. Toward the end of his Gospel, John summarized matters, saying: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, [not God, but] the Son of God.”—John 20:31, RS. Does Thomas’ exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God? John 20:28 (RS) reads: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” There is no objection to referring to Jesus as “God,” if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as “gods.” (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as “the only-begotten god.” (See also Ro, By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as “Mighty God,” but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as “a god,” or “divine,” at John 1:1 (NW, AT). The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31). Does Matthew 1:23 indicate that Jesus when on earth was God? Matt. 1:23, RS: “‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emman′u-el’ (which means, God with us [“God is with us,” NE]).” In announcing Jesus’ coming birth, did Jehovah’s angel say that the child would be God himself? No, the announcement was: “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.” (Luke 1:32, 35, RS; italics added.) And Jesus himself never claimed to be God but, rather, “the Son of God.” (John 10:36, RS; italics added.) Jesus was sent into the world by God; so by means of this only-begotten Son, God was with mankind.—John 3:17; 17:8. It was not unusual for Hebrew names to include within them the word for God or even an abbreviated form of God’s personal name. For example, Eli′athah means “God Has Come”; Jehu means “Jehovah Is He”; Elijah means “My God Is Jehovah.” But none of these names implied that the possessor was himself God. What is the meaning of John 5:18? John 5:18, RS: “This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.” It was the unbelieving Jews who reasoned that Jesus was attempting to make himself equal with God by claiming God as his Father. While properly referring to God as his Father, Jesus never claimed equality with God. He straightforwardly answered the Jews: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (John 5:19, RS; see also John 14:28; John 10:36.) It was those unbelieving Jews, too, who claimed that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but they were wrong also about that. Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and he declared: “It is lawful to do good on the sabbath.”—Matt. 12:10-12, RS.
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StingerSplash
Main Eventer
Give em' the Scorpion Death Drop.
Joined on: Jun 6, 2009 11:30:40 GMT -5
Posts: 3,976
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Post by StingerSplash on May 11, 2010 20:53:21 GMT -5
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” —Matthew 12:36-37 Condemnation is spoken of here. This clearly shows some sort of punishment for those who don't follow the Lord. I agree. However the punishment doesn't have to be eternal fire for a soul and a person to burn eternally...Where in fact does it say a soul can burn?There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. —Romans 8:1 Again, those who follow Jesus suffer no condemnation, but what of those who do not? In accordance to those who turn away from God: 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire The dead are raised. This would imply that the dead are not given Heaven or Hell as soon as they die. This section would imply that God raises the dead on that Day, and then judges them. In regards to the unconscious state of the dead, they would be unconscious because God hasn't yet given his judgement upon them. Without God's judgement, they would have recieved neither Heaven or Hell. It clearly states that if anyone's name isn't found, then they are thrown into the lake of fire. Why would God judge the dead after just waking up? Romans 6:7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin. That means they have paid for their sins. They are not judged AGAIN for them. So judgement day must mean something else...Consider....What was the punishment of Adam and EVE? A fiery hell? Don't remember that in Genesis. No, they were to die. That's it. And that goes with what I said before about God is Love. Burning forever is not love.
In regards to Jesus being in Hell: Jesus Preaching In Hell "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.” (1 Peter 3:18-19) Now those who died before Christ went to the cross went to Hades (Hell). Those who put their faith in God went to one side, where they were comforted. This side was known as Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16:25). Those who did not put their faith in God went to the other side where there was torment (verses 24-25 ). The two sides were separated by a great gulf (verse 26). Well...that's a MIGHTY big Bosom Abraham has isn't it? Those who put their faith in God were in Hades but they weren’t going to stay there forever. David had hope that God would lead him out of Hades when he said: “You will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.” (Acts 2:27) Now why would God put FAITHFUL David in hell? To burn? No...David was faithful. He was never in hell. Hell is another term for grave.Jesus did not go to Hell to suffer, He paid for our sins completely on the cross (John 19:30). No, Jesus didn't burn in hell for three days. He was DEAD for three days. Bible does not say he was burning for three days.He went to the faithful who were waiting for Him in Abraham’s bosom. They were in prison in the sense that they could not enter heaven until their sins were paid for. Although they had made sacrifices those sacrifices could never take away sin. They were a foreshadowing of Jesus sacrifice on the cross. According to this passage, those who turn to God while in Hell can be freed. However, does that mean that all people turn back to God and are saved? If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. --I John 1:9 Hebrews 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.
John is saying that the only ones who are saved are the ones that admit their sins and repent. Not everyone will do this. This would suggest that only the ones who recommit to God will be saved. The others will be condemned, as shown above. I have already posted Ezekial 18:4 where it says that souls DIE. Not burn forever. Die...Yes souls can die. What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is? Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.” Once you die in this earthly body that is it. You don't go to be punished in hell because you have paid for your sins. After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins? Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not! By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death? Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself. What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54. First, I never stated that a soul could burn. I stated that there is some sort of punishment. You were putting words in my mouth. Secondly, I never offered my own opinion. I listed what the scriptures had to say on the topic. Thirdly, on the subject of burning. If the consequences of sin is death, then why are the dead raised in Revelation, and then the unholy are thrown into the lake of sulfur. Again, I am stating scripture. The scripture says this. Abraham's bosom: Luke 16:20-36 (New International Version) 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
The scripture again states torment and punishment after death. Maybe the punishment isn't death, but there is some sort of punishment. What I would consider to be the Ultimate Punishment, is to see what could of been if you would have lived your life the right way. Which, if the man were to see Abraham, he would have to see where they were.
There's no looking at this in rose-colored glasses: The Bible states that there is punishment after death. I personally believe that when the Bible says 'death' that it is referring to the process and the coming punishment. Just my opinion.
However, take it as you want, the Bible speaks of punishment after death.
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Post by bane on May 11, 2010 21:03:08 GMT -5
I have already posted Ezekial 18:4 where it says that souls DIE. Not burn forever. Die...Yes souls can die. What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is? Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.” Once you die in this earthly body that is it. You don't go to be punished in hell because you have paid for your sins. After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins? Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not! By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death? Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself. What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54. First, I never stated that a soul could burn. I stated that there is some sort of punishment. You were putting words in my mouth. Secondly, I never offered my own opinion. I listed what the scriptures had to say on the topic. Thirdly, on the subject of burning. If the consequences of sin is death, then why are the dead raised in Revelation, and then the unholy are thrown into the lake of sulfur. Again, I am stating scripture. The scripture says this. Abraham's bosom: Luke 16:20-36 (New International Version) 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
The scripture again states torment and punishment after death. Maybe the punishment isn't death, but there is some sort of punishment. What I would consider to be the Ultimate Punishment, is to see what could of been if you would have lived your life the right way. Which, if the man were to see Abraham, he would have to see where they were.
There's no looking at this in rose-colored glasses: The Bible states that there is punishment after death. I personally believe that when the Bible says 'death' that it is referring to the process and the coming punishment. Just my opinion.
However, take it as you want, the Bible speaks of punishment after death. Bible also speaks twice now that once you die you have been acquitted from your sins. So no punishment after death. The rich man and Lazarus is an illustration. Not literal. Because of what you say is true than all rich men would be punished after death because that's what the parable says...Read the explanation again. This Lazarus is not the literal Lazarus. Why are all of Jesus' parables just that, but you think THIS one is literal when all others aren't? Is there eternal punishment for the wicked? Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”) 2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.) Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 11, 2010 21:55:40 GMT -5
Is Jesus Christ actually God? John 17:3, RS: “[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God [“who alone art truly God,” NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as “the only true God.”) Yes. Jesus has a dual nature of both God and man. The flesh here prays to the deity. Shall I give you a list of scriptures where Jesus claimed to be the Father or is referred to as the Father? Again, the fleshly nature deferring to the deity. Where do I find these pages? Also, I thought you didn't believe in the Trinity? Yet you reference it here. Very confused. Again, I'm not sure what all these abbreviations mean. Where are you cutting/pasting this from? Exactly, Jesus declares and makes known the Father. He (Jesus) is the image of the Father. The next verse says that in believing you may find life through his name. Jesus grants eternal life. I thought only God could do that. Yet Revelation refers to Jesus at the Almighty God. Confused. Eternal life is through Jesus yet he's not god? Umm, Immanuel still means God with us. Not true. Not true at all. Jesus claimed to be the Father several times (John 10:30, Isa 9:6, John 8 , John 14). Yes, Jesus claimed to be God. Umm, how about when he claimed that He and His Father were one? or when he said that if you see him, you see the Father. In John 8 he said "Before Abraham was I AM." How can that be interpreted in any other way than claiming oneness with the I AM? Also, where are you cutting and pasting this from?
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Post by bane on May 11, 2010 22:13:03 GMT -5
Again, already answered your questions about these. Look over the 10 pages. I have already proven Jesus in an angel, that he is not God etc. You gloss over those and keep on repeating some of the same stuff. Jesus never claims to be God. I suppose I can do it again...
Could God Be Tempted? AT MATTHEW 4:1, Jesus is spoken of as being “tempted by the Devil.” After showing Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,” Satan said: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” (Matthew 4:8, 9) Satan was trying to cause Jesus to be disloyal to God. But what test of loyalty would that be if Jesus were God? Could God rebel against himself? No, but angels and humans could rebel against God and did. The temptation of Jesus would make sense only if he was, not God, but a separate individual who had his own free will, one who could have been disloyal had he chosen to be, such as an angel or a human. On the other hand, it is unimaginable that God could sin and be disloyal to himself. “Perfect is his activity . . . A God of faithfulness, . . . righteous and upright is he.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) So if Jesus had been God, he could not have been tempted.—James 1:13. Not being God, Jesus could have been disloyal. But he remained faithful, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”—Matthew 4:10.
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Post by Focalin on May 11, 2010 22:15:37 GMT -5
Agnostic.
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Post by AdamBomb on May 11, 2010 22:30:50 GMT -5
...and after all of these pages, this is the prime reason why I rarely ever discuss religion.
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Post by bane on May 11, 2010 22:46:40 GMT -5
...and after all of these pages, this is the prime reason why I rarely ever discuss religion. I love to talk about it. I relish in it. Jesus commanded his disciples to talk about it. We haven't discussed with hate here. Why is this the prime reason for you? What is it? The hypocrisy of religions or what?
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 11, 2010 22:50:28 GMT -5
Again, already answered your questions about these. Look over the 10 pages. I have already proven Jesus in an angel, that he is not God etc. You gloss over those and keep on repeating some of the same stuff. Jesus never claims to be God. I suppose I can do it again... Could God Be Tempted? AT MATTHEW 4:1, Jesus is spoken of as being “tempted by the Devil.” After showing Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,” Satan said: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” (Matthew 4:8, 9) Satan was trying to cause Jesus to be disloyal to God. But what test of loyalty would that be if Jesus were God? Could God rebel against himself? No, but angels and humans could rebel against God and did. The temptation of Jesus would make sense only if he was, not God, but a separate individual who had his own free will, one who could have been disloyal had he chosen to be, such as an angel or a human. On the other hand, it is unimaginable that God could sin and be disloyal to himself. “Perfect is his activity . . . A God of faithfulness, . . . righteous and upright is he.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) So if Jesus had been God, he could not have been tempted.—James 1:13. Not being God, Jesus could have been disloyal. But he remained faithful, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”—Matthew 4:10. Honestly Bane, I'm kind of done with this topic. I take the time to dissect and intelligently respond to what you post and I'm realizing that all you're doing is copying/pasting from somewhere and I don't think you're even reading it before you do so. When I ask you specific questions, you don't answer then, you just cut/paste a section from where ever. I don't see why I should take the time to look up stuff in my Bible and ask questions if your response is just going to go back to whatever source you're cutting/pasting from and cut/paste more stuff that doesn't even answer any of my questions. What of Paul on the Damascus road? You said that Paul was simply mistaken and who Jesus is was revealed to him after his conversion. Fine, but where's the scripture to back it up? And how come when Paul recounts the story (as he did several times in the Book of Acts) does he recount it nearly exactly as it is in chapter 9. Paul asks "Who are you Jehovah?" The voice replies "I am Jesus." What of Zechariah where Jehovah says that he will be sold for 30 pieces of silver and that He will be pierced? What of John who refers to himself as both the forerunner of Jehovah and the forerunner of Christ? To all of these questions you simply cut/paste something from a website somewhere. You don't even give credit to said site and the site doesn't directly address any of the questions I ask. I've referred over and over and over again to the dual nature of Jesus and how he was both man and God even when this explains so many of your objections (like Jesus being tempted), yet you don't even acknowledge that point and simply cut/paste something that's only semi-relevant. No offense meant, but I'm no longer going to take the time to respond to just stuff that's being copied from other web sites.
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Post by AdamBomb on May 11, 2010 23:07:41 GMT -5
...and after all of these pages, this is the prime reason why I rarely ever discuss religion. I love to talk about it. I relish in it. Jesus commanded his disciples to talk about it. We haven't discussed with hate here. Why is this the prime reason for you? What is it? The hypocrisy of religions or what? I keep my beliefs to myself. All the power to you being extremely open with yours, but just like other things in my life - people's ignorance frustrates me to no end, and I'm not a patient person.
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