StingerSplash
Main Eventer
Give em' the Scorpion Death Drop.
Joined on: Jun 6, 2009 11:30:40 GMT -5
Posts: 3,976
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Post by StingerSplash on May 9, 2010 21:35:49 GMT -5
Hmm...Haven't Buddist monks gone to war? Have they ever killed anyone? What are you trying to prove? That other religions are just as "bad" as Christianity? Because Christians sure have killed people. I really don't see the point you are trying to make here. Catholics killed people. It was the Roman Catholic church that started the Crusades. Not the Christian church. While both churches follow the same God, they have different fundamental beliefs and practices. Hence, the Catholics started the Crusades. The Protestant church, didn't.
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Post by bane on May 9, 2010 21:35:56 GMT -5
And you are still forgetting this verse. John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. MANY people saw Jesus and yet lived. Therefore according to this verse, Jesus CANNOT be God. He is A god though. He is godlike but certainly is NOT the Almighty God. Notice the capitals. And you're denying the fleshly nature of Christ. Jesus has a dual nature of being both God and man. John 14:9 - "He that has seen me has seen the Father." How much more literal can you get? I resemble my dad, but I can't say that if you've seen me, you've seen him. We're completely different people. Jesus could say that if you see him, you see the Father because they were one in the same. (John 10:30). I thought you said he was a Trinity. Again, make up your mind. I only see TWO people being talked about here. John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.” This scripture tells us that the father was NOT on Earth. If he was, why did Jesus have to go to him? Therefore when Jesus says he that has seen me as seen the father means just that. He is the perfect reflection of what his father is. Also this...1 Cor. 11:3, RS: “I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.)
Also, in Revelation 1:8, Jesus refers to himself as the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end saith the Lord, which is, which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Emphasis mine). Alpha and Omega: To whom does this title properly belong? (1) At Revelation 1:8, its owner is said to be God, the Almighty. In verse 11 according to KJ, that title is applied to one whose description thereafter shows him to be Jesus Christ. But scholars recognize the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 11 to be spurious, and so it does not appear in RS, NE, JB, NAB, Dy. (2) Many translations of Revelation into Hebrew recognize that the one described in verse 8 is Jehovah, and so they restore the personal name of God there. See NW, 1984 Reference edition. (3) Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6) (4) At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it. (5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.
On top of that, if you look at Acts 9, we read the story of Saul's conversion on the road to Damascus. Now, Saul was a devout Jew and when he was struck down and God spoke to him, he recognized that it was Jehovah speaking to him. He was a devout Jew and would've recognized no other deity. Yet when Saul asked, "Who are you Lord (Jehovah)." The Lord (Jehovah) answered, "I am Jesus who you are persecuting." You can't get much clearer than that. . Acts 9:3 Now as he was traveling he approached Damascus, when suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 He said: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. I don't see where it says Jehovah anywhere.
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Post by bane on May 9, 2010 21:39:03 GMT -5
Hmm...Haven't Buddist monks gone to war? Have they ever killed anyone? What are you trying to prove? That other religions are just as "bad" as Christianity? Because Christians sure have killed people. I really don't see the point you are trying to make here. Of course you are right. Christendom has certainly gone to war and blessed weapons. However none of Jehovah's Witnesses were in those trenches. You can be assured of that. We don't go to war. We will not fight and kill another. That is well documented evidence. Because of our neutral stand many of us have been in prisons for not using weapons of war. Remember what I said before. If it is not in the bible, don't do it. Re read our posts. that is the first thing I talk about. War. MANY religions teach it is ok to kill. Not Jehovah's witnesses. Plenty of Protestants and Catholics among other relgions have gone to war. I think maybe us and the Amish are the only ones who haven't.
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Post by slappy on May 9, 2010 21:40:54 GMT -5
What are you trying to prove? That other religions are just as "bad" as Christianity? Because Christians sure have killed people. I really don't see the point you are trying to make here. Of course you are right. Christendom has certainly gone to war and blessed weapons. However none of Jehovah's Witnesses were in those trenches. You can be assured of that. We don't go to war. We will not fight and kill another. That is well documented evidence. Because of our neutral stand many of us have been in prisons for not using weapons of war. Remember what I said before. If it is not in the bible, don't do it. Re read our posts. that is the first thing I talk about. War. MANY religions teach it is ok to kill. Not Jehovah's witnesses. Plenty of Protestants and Catholics among other relgions have gone to war. I think maybe us and the Amish are the only ones who haven't. Unitarian Universalists are anti-war and killing. If I had to pick a religion, I'd go with them.
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Post by captain master talbot on May 9, 2010 21:59:54 GMT -5
I'm an Atheist.
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Post by Mr. PerpetuaLynch Motion on May 9, 2010 22:04:00 GMT -5
What are you trying to prove? That other religions are just as "bad" as Christianity? Because Christians sure have killed people. I really don't see the point you are trying to make here. Of course you are right. Christendom has certainly gone to war and blessed weapons. However none of Jehovah's Witnesses were in those trenches. You can be assured of that. We don't go to war. We will not fight and kill another. That is well documented evidence. Because of our neutral stand many of us have been in prisons for not using weapons of war. Remember what I said before. If it is not in the bible, don't do it. Re read our posts. that is the first thing I talk about. War. MANY religions teach it is ok to kill. Not Jehovah's witnesses. Plenty of Protestants and Catholics among other relgions have gone to war. I think maybe us and the Amish are the only ones who haven't. That's all well and good but I'd still rather not support a cult.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 9, 2010 22:08:31 GMT -5
Obviously I haven't made myself clear. I do not believe in the Trinity. Nor do I believe that Jesus is a lesser God. If he's a lesser God, then why does he have all power? And why are we commanded to baptize only in his name? I believe that Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and He is also the One sitting on the throne in Revelations 4. Any way you look at it, there is only one person sitting on that one throne. Who is it?
Jesus has a dual nature. He is both God and man. As a man, he slept, he ate, he walked, he died. As God he raised the dead, healed the sick and forgave sins. The flesh is subject to the deity at all times in a similar fashion we are taught to bring our flesh into subjection to God.
I have no clue at all where you are cutting and pasting this from and I have no idea what any of the abbreviations you're using refer to. All I know is that in the KJV, it's in red letters where Jesus refers to himself as, "The Almighty."
Saul was a devout Jew. I think we would both agree on that. A devout Jew would not refer to anyone at all as "Lord" except for Jehovah.
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Post by TurboEddie on May 9, 2010 22:12:35 GMT -5
I'm an athiest, i just can't buy into that whole god thing, and i won't understand anyone who bases their life on a very old, innaccurate and fictional book written by a nobody thousands of years ago. When your gone your gone, science has pretty much proven that there isn't a god anyway. You pretty damn much answered mine.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 9, 2010 22:20:12 GMT -5
I'm an athiest, i just can't buy into that whole god thing, and i won't understand anyone who bases their life on a very old, innaccurate and fictional book written by a nobody thousands of years ago. When your gone your gone, science has pretty much proven that there isn't a god anyway. You pretty damn much answered mine. Except that science hasn't proven there isn't a god any more than believers have proved that there is. There's zero proof on either side. It ultimately comes down to a matter of faith and where you put yours.
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Post by bane on May 9, 2010 22:34:08 GMT -5
Of course you are right. Christendom has certainly gone to war and blessed weapons. However none of Jehovah's Witnesses were in those trenches. You can be assured of that. We don't go to war. We will not fight and kill another. That is well documented evidence. Because of our neutral stand many of us have been in prisons for not using weapons of war. Remember what I said before. If it is not in the bible, don't do it. Re read our posts. that is the first thing I talk about. War. MANY religions teach it is ok to kill. Not Jehovah's witnesses. Plenty of Protestants and Catholics among other relgions have gone to war. I think maybe us and the Amish are the only ones who haven't. Unitarian Universalists are anti-war and killing. If I had to pick a religion, I'd go with them. But like I said, there are more requirements for the true religion except going to war. Many more.
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Post by slappy on May 9, 2010 22:37:52 GMT -5
Unitarian Universalists are anti-war and killing. If I had to pick a religion, I'd go with them. But like I said, there are more requirements for the true religion except going to war. Many more. I don't know if you know about UU's, but I think they are a true religion.
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Post by bane on May 9, 2010 22:39:01 GMT -5
I have no clue at all where you are cutting and pasting this from and I have no idea what any of the abbreviations you're using refer to. All I know is that in the KJV, it's in red letters where Jesus refers to himself as, "The Almighty." So you believe the King James version is the one handed down from heaven? You don't acknowledge other bible translations? RS is Revised Standard version among others. They all read differently from the KJV. Which means King James Version.
Saul was a devout Jew. I think we would both agree on that. A devout Jew would not refer to anyone at all as "Lord" except for Jehovah.[/quote] He may well thought that it was the LORD Jehovah. But he was blind. He couldn't see. LATER he became a christian correct? Therefore he learned the truth about Jesus. But then again he KNEW the Mosaic law right? He KNEW that no man could see God and yet live. Maybe he thought he was talking to an angel and not God himself since he knew the scriptures. You cannot see God and still live. I think I have already proven that. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man that he should tell lies, Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret. Has he himself said it and will he not do it, And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
See there? God is NOT a man. Yet Jesus was. Therefore another proof that Jesus could not be God or that would be making the bible not to be true. This scripture is in the HEBREW scriptures now...Not in the new testament so Paul as a jew would've known this.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 9, 2010 22:43:28 GMT -5
I'm very confused. You believe in two gods? Jesus is one god who should be worshipped and Jehovah is another god who should be worshipped as well?
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Captain d00m - Mr. 3000
Main Eventer
Bringing death and destruction since 2005!
Joined on: Dec 2, 2005 20:52:43 GMT -5
Posts: 3,376
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Post by Captain d00m - Mr. 3000 on May 9, 2010 22:46:08 GMT -5
Round of applause you guys, as far as I can tell this is just a discussion a not a typical flame thread. Great job everyone.
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Post by bane on May 9, 2010 22:49:14 GMT -5
I'm very confused. You believe in two gods? Jesus is one god who should be worshipped and Jehovah is another god who should be worshipped as well? Jesus isn't a god to be worshipped. Mark 10:17 And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” 18 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God. If Jesus WERE God dont'cha think he would've wanted to be worshipped? But no...He said only God is good. Not himself. Jesus is indeed God's son. But not God himself. We do not worship Jesus. Respect, honor, etc. but never worship. that belongs exclusive to Jehovah.
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StingerSplash
Main Eventer
Give em' the Scorpion Death Drop.
Joined on: Jun 6, 2009 11:30:40 GMT -5
Posts: 3,976
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Post by StingerSplash on May 9, 2010 23:10:27 GMT -5
Round of applause you guys, as far as I can tell this is just a discussion a not a typical flame thread. Great job everyone. It's sure been better than alot of the religious threads on here. I've really enjoyed talking. So far, everyone has respected everyone else's beliefs, and I hope it stays that way. But I've got to go to bed for school, so we'll continue the discussion tomorrow.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 9, 2010 23:47:14 GMT -5
I'm very confused. You believe in two gods? Jesus is one god who should be worshipped and Jehovah is another god who should be worshipped as well? Jesus isn't a god to be worshipped. Mark 10:17 And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” 18 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God. If Jesus WERE God dont'cha think he would've wanted to be worshipped? But no...He said only God is good. Not himself. Jesus is indeed God's son. But not God himself. We do not worship Jesus. Respect, honor, etc. but never worship. that belongs exclusive to Jehovah. But Jesus was worshipped in the Bible. Matt 2:11 - The wise men worshipped the baby Jesus. Matt 8:2 - Lepers worshipped Jesus and he never told them not to. Matt 9:18 - A ruler comes and worships Jesus. Matt 15:25 - A woman comes to Jesus and worships him. Luke 24:52 - People worship Jesus as he ascends into Heaven. John 9:38 - A man worships Jesus. Now, in none of these situations does Jesus stop these people from worshipping him. When you get into the book of Acts and you see people worshipping Peter (who no one here thinks are deity)he stops them from worshipping them. Acts 10:25 - Cornelius worships Peter and Peter stops him immediately. Yes, Jesus is Jehovah in flesh Isa 40:3 - Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people! MAKE the highway for our God through the desert plain straight (New World Translation) Matt 3:3 - This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’” (New World Translation) Both of these passages refer to John the Baptist who is to prepare the way of Jehovah. John the Baptist is the forerunner of Jesus. Isa 45:5 - I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God. So it's pretty obvious that Jehovah is the only God period. At least in the New Testament. Yet you find this interesting verse in 1 Tim 3:16 - Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He (God) was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’ (New World Translation, italics mine). Now, which God was made manifest in flesh? Which God was declared righteous in spirit? Which God appeared to angels? Which God was preached among all nations? Which God was believed on in the world? Which God was received up in glory? My answer - The only God - Jehovah. He was manifest in flesh, declared righteous, etc, etc..... Jesus is God. Jesus is the manifestation of the Jehovah God of the Old Testament. Jesus = Jehovah. They're the exact same person. When you see Jesus, you see the visible manifestation of God. When you get to Heaven and see the one sitting on the throne, you're looking at Jesus. There is a reason that we're supposed to go into all the world in His (Jesus) name. There's a reason why all baptism's take place in His name. He is the Almighty God referenced in Revelation. He is the Creator of the world and the Redeemer of the world and will one day be it's Judge as well. When you look at Jesus you see the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9). I've got to go to bed now and will pick this up tomorrow evening assuming it hasn't turned into an ugly fight and gotten locked by then.
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Post by bane on May 10, 2010 1:31:07 GMT -5
Jesus isn't a god to be worshipped. Mark 10:17 And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” 18 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God. If Jesus WERE God dont'cha think he would've wanted to be worshipped? But no...He said only God is good. Not himself. Jesus is indeed God's son. But not God himself. We do not worship Jesus. Respect, honor, etc. but never worship. that belongs exclusive to Jehovah. But Jesus was worshipped in the Bible. Matt 2:11 - The wise men worshipped the baby Jesus. 11 And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it. They also opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. They were ASTROLOGERS! Not worshippers of God. Plus you notice they came into the HOUSE. Not the manger. So Christmas has it wrong that the "wise men" are in a manger. Scriptures say a house because Jesus is 2 years old by now.Matt 8:2 - Lepers worshipped Jesus and he never told them not to. OBEISANCE The act of bowing, kneeling, prostrating the body, or making some other gesture to betoken submission; or simply the paying of respect. It adequately translates the Hebrew hish·ta·chawah′ and the Greek pro·sky·ne′o in many cases. Obeisance is not worship...
Matt 9:18 - A ruler comes and worships Jesus. Matt 15:25 - A woman comes to Jesus and worships him. Luke 24:52 - People worship Jesus as he ascends into Heaven. John 9:38 - A man worships Jesus. In fact I went through all these verses. They all say obesiance. Not worship. Now, in none of these situations does Jesus stop these people from worshipping him. When you get into the book of Acts and you see people worshipping Peter (who no one here thinks are deity)he stops them from worshipping them. Acts 10:25 - Cornelius worships Peter and Peter stops him immediately. Yes, Jesus is Jehovah in flesh Isa 40:3 - Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people! MAKE the highway for our God through the desert plain straight (New World Translation) Much like a delegate from a foreign nation would come FIRST to a nation to signal the arrival of the real delegate. This does not prove in any way that Jesus is God.Matt 3:3 - This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’” (New World Translation) You do realize is that this is John the Baptist. he is PREPARING the people's mental and spirtual lives to recognize the Christ.Both of these passages refer to John the Baptist who is to prepare the way of Jehovah. John the Baptist is the forerunner of Jesus. I agree.Isa 45:5 - I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God. I agree. He is the only true God. I have already mentioned that on many occasions.So it's pretty obvious that Jehovah is the only God period. At least in the New Testament. Yet you find this interesting verse in 1 Tim 3:16 - Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He (God) was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’ (New World Translation, italics mine). 16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’ Mine is different from yours. Let's see what other translations say...New International version-16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He[c] appeared in a body,[d] was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. American Standard-16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness: He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh, Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit, (AI)Seen by angels, (AJ)Proclaimed among the nations, (AK)Believed on in the world, (AL)Taken up in glory.
Both are different from the KJV.Now, which God was made manifest in flesh? Which God was declared righteous in spirit? Which God appeared to angels? Which God was preached among all nations? Which God was believed on in the world? Which God was received up in glory? Jesus. He is called a MIGHTY god in the bible isn't he?My answer - The only God - Jehovah. He was manifest in flesh, declared righteous, etc, etc..... Jesus is God. Jesus is the manifestation of the Jehovah God of the Old Testament. It's funny you never consider any of the verses I leave you. Numbers 23:19, 1 John 4:12 BOTH say that God cannot be human. Jesus = Jehovah. They're the exact same person. When you see Jesus, you see the visible manifestation of God. When you get to Heaven and see the one sitting on the throne, you're looking at Jesus. There is a reason that we're supposed to go into all the world in His (Jesus) name. There's a reason why all baptism's take place in His name. He is the Almighty God referenced in Revelation. He is the Creator of the world and the Redeemer of the world and will one day be it's Judge as well. When you look at Jesus you see the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9). KJ reads: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·o′te·tos] bodily.” (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (AT, We, and CKW read “God’s nature,” instead of “Godhead.” Compare 2 Peter 1:4.) Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is “the fullness” that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. It says it was “by God’s own choice.” Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fulness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”
I've got to go to bed now and will pick this up tomorrow evening assuming it hasn't turned into an ugly fight and gotten locked by then. Notice the new living translation of 1 timothy 3:16 Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith[f]: Christ[g] was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit.[h] He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory. That really explains it well. Says nothing about God at that one.
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Post by The Champ is Here! on May 10, 2010 6:53:17 GMT -5
Just throwing this out there
The KJV is the most inaccurate translation we have
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Post by carly1988 on May 10, 2010 8:58:52 GMT -5
Just throwing this out there The KJV is the most inaccurate translation we have ....says who?
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