|
|
Post by HandsomeHollywood on Apr 9, 2019 19:10:09 GMT -5
I sincerely do not think Stu would have said "under this legal contract I agree that you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT with/without title belts in my company." then go and break the law.... the whole problem really was Bischoff and what he did with Madusa and her belt earlier - which justifies Vince's fear (as anyone would feel the same). HOWEVER - if anyone had issues of dishonour, rebellion and disrespect as a pro - IT WAS NOT BRET HART... therefore Vince had no past history with him nor reasons to screw him... Check out the HOF video of Hitman getting attacked, pay attention to all the people who RUN to defend and protect him - says a lot... Vince wasn't even scared of Bret taking the belt to Nitro. He was scared that on Nitro after Survivor Series, WCW had the ability to say "we've signed WWF's champion". At least that's how Jim Cornette tells it, and he was in Vince's inner circle at the time. Bret would never bring the WWF title to Nitro and everyone knew it. He was too classy. Vince felt he couldn't afford WCW having that brag though. |
|
The Golden Gimmick
Mid-Carder
...but brother, I am bad. And they know I’m bad.
Joined on: Jul 25, 2003 22:13:48 GMT -5
Posts: 322
|
Post by The Golden Gimmick on Apr 9, 2019 20:36:05 GMT -5
HOWEVER - if anyone had issues of dishonour, rebellion and disrespect as a pro - IT WAS NOT BRET HART... therefore Vince had no past history with him nor reasons to screw him.... Bottom line, Bret was asked to do something and he didn't want to do it. Creative freedom is one thing, but when you stand to make double what the next guy is making while you're leaving, it seems highly ego driven. Bobby Heenan said it best, "I'd a put the guy over, got my money and gone home. We're in this for money." The ol' "can't lose in Canada" line is always funny. |
|
|
|
Post by Hulkster2001 on Apr 10, 2019 8:29:27 GMT -5
Bret deserved to be screwed
|
|
|
|
Post by HandsomeHollywood on Apr 10, 2019 15:20:57 GMT -5
HOWEVER - if anyone had issues of dishonour, rebellion and disrespect as a pro - IT WAS NOT BRET HART... therefore Vince had no past history with him nor reasons to screw him.... Bottom line, Bret was asked to do something and he didn't want to do it. Creative freedom is one thing, but when you stand to make double what the next guy is making while you're leaving, it seems highly ego driven. Bobby Heenan said it best, "I'd a put the guy over, got my money and gone home. We're in this for money." The ol' "can't lose in Canada" line is always funny. Bret is the only guy to have creative freedom in his contract and not get use it much. Bret was asked to agree to be let out of his contract. Bret was asked to talk to WCW. Bret was asked to put over a guy who would never do the same for him. They could have fired or stripped Bret. Instead they all lied to his face and pulled the screw job. They acted like cowards. Maybe they should have told Bret to do the job. Instead they asked, he said no, they said okay Bret wasn't going to say he'll do it and then shoot on Michaels. Wrestlers often make decisions against the company. Shawn Michaels frequently refused to put guys over unless they were his friends and he often gets a free pass. I wish the guys in WCW refused to put over David Arquette. I can't help but think if the roles were reversed, people would be championing Shawn Michaels for sticking to his principles. Oh right, the roles were reversed and Michaels refused several times to put guys over. Sometimes going as far as to just fake injuries. Never got screwed in ring by Vader though. Bret wasn't against dropping the belt and he certainly wouldn't have shot on Shawn Michaels. It was the other side totally unwilling to compromise. |
|
The Golden Gimmick
Mid-Carder
...but brother, I am bad. And they know I’m bad.
Joined on: Jul 25, 2003 22:13:48 GMT -5
Posts: 322
|
Post by The Golden Gimmick on Apr 10, 2019 18:54:13 GMT -5
Bret is the only guy to have creative freedom in his contract and not get use it much. Bret was asked to agree to be let out of his contract. Bret was asked to talk to WCW. Bret was asked to put over a guy who would never do the same for him. They could have fired or stripped Bret. Instead they all lied to his face and pulled the screw job. They acted like cowards. Maybe they should have told Bret to do the job. Instead they asked, he said no, they said okay Bret wasn't going to say he'll do it and then shoot on Michaels. Wrestlers often make decisions against the company. Shawn Michaels frequently refused to put guys over unless they were his friends and he often gets a free pass. I wish the guys in WCW refused to put over David Arquette. I can't help but think if the roles were reversed, people would be championing Shawn Michaels for sticking to his principles. Oh right, the roles were reversed and Michaels refused several times to put guys over. Sometimes going as far as to just fake injuries. Never got screwed in ring by Vader though. Bret wasn't against dropping the belt and he certainly wouldn't have shot on Shawn Michaels. It was the other side totally unwilling to compromise. Here's my take: Michaels will forever and always be the scapegoat in this situation. Shawn Michaels did the better portion of 1992 jobbing out to Bret on the road and on PPV, making him look like a champion. When Michaels quipped with the line about not doing the job for Hart in '96 or '97, he should've added "anymore." No one seems to remember HBK submitting to the Sharpshooter in '92, Bret's first major title defense. Michaels had no problem doing the job then. In fact, their overall singles record between the two is 66-6-1* (give or take a few house show results.) Hart being the victor. So who had a problem jobbing to who? Earlier that year however, Hart was arguably on his way out the door for WCW. So it was a spot that could've very well gone to the emerging HBK. Talk about a root cause for resentment. Just a few years later, take a look at Wrestlemania X. That was The Bret Hart show. He starts the PPV. He closes the PPV. He even wanted credit for implementing the ladder match that would steal the show that night. Even the Undertaker notoriously chimed in saying, "Motherf*cker, not everything is about YOU!" So when it was finally Michaels face time in '96, after years of Hart having his go at the top spot, Bret put up a spotlight fight. Speaks to the degree of his ego. Shawn reacted accordingly by being a diva, but I don't blame him. His time had come, and Bret had an issue with that. Michaels didn't need to prove to Bret that he was worthy. Bret wasn't the judge, jury and executioner. Hart always had a fear of being swept aside and saw Michaels as an inferior talent. Who's problem is that? Vince tried to pad Bret's ego with lucrative long term contracts (that no one else was getting) and getting his wins back, etc, but the company couldn't have survived under those stipulations, and Vince knew Bret wasn't worth the money in the long run. that's why he urged him to take the pay day at WCW. By 1997, it was clear that Hart was not content with the way WWF programming was headed, nor was he excited about not being champion. The WWF did the only thing it could, and forcibly took the belt from him in a situation that could've altogether been avoided.
Bret has beccome a martyr because people think he was treated with indifference, but in all honesty, he was being just as big a diva as Michaels, if not more. All he had to do was do the job he was asked.
Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone that Shawn Michaels wasn't a dickhead, but under the circumstances, I would definitely be one too.
|
|
Papi Joker
Main Eventer
INTERNATIONAL COLLECTORS LIVES MATTER
Joined on: Feb 23, 2016 23:56:30 GMT -5
Posts: 1,604
|
Post by Papi Joker on Apr 10, 2019 19:03:39 GMT -5
Bret is the only guy to have creative freedom in his contract and not get use it much. Bret was asked to agree to be let out of his contract. Bret was asked to talk to WCW. Bret was asked to put over a guy who would never do the same for him. They could have fired or stripped Bret. Instead they all lied to his face and pulled the screw job. They acted like cowards. Maybe they should have told Bret to do the job. Instead they asked, he said no, they said okay Bret wasn't going to say he'll do it and then shoot on Michaels. Wrestlers often make decisions against the company. Shawn Michaels frequently refused to put guys over unless they were his friends and he often gets a free pass. I wish the guys in WCW refused to put over David Arquette. I can't help but think if the roles were reversed, people would be championing Shawn Michaels for sticking to his principles. Oh right, the roles were reversed and Michaels refused several times to put guys over. Sometimes going as far as to just fake injuries. Never got screwed in ring by Vader though. Bret wasn't against dropping the belt and he certainly wouldn't have shot on Shawn Michaels. It was the other side totally unwilling to compromise. Here's my take: Michaels will forever and always be the scapegoat in this situation. Shawn Michaels did the better portion of 1992 jobbing out to Bret on the road and on PPV, making him look like a champion. When Michaels quipped with the line about not doing the job for Hart in '96 or '97, he should've added "anymore." No one seems to remember HBK submitting to the Sharpshooter in '92, Bret's first major title defense. Michaels had no problem doing the job then. In fact, their overall singles record between the two is 66-6-1* (give or take a few house show results.) Hart being the victor. So who had a problem jobbing to who? Earlier that year however, Hart was arguably on his way out the door for WCW. So it was a spot that could've very well gone to the emerging HBK. Talk about a root cause for resentment. Just a few years later, take a look at Wrestlemania X. That was The Bret Hart show. He starts the PPV. He closes the PPV. He even wanted credit for implementing the ladder match that would steal the show that night. Even the Undertaker notoriously chimed in saying, "Motherf*cker, not everything is about YOU!" So when it was finally Michaels face time in '96, after years of Hart having his go at the top spot, Bret put up a spotlight fight. Speaks to the degree of his ego. Shawn reacted accordingly by being a diva, but I don't blame him. His time had come, and Bret had an issue with that. Michaels didn't need to prove to Bret that he was worthy. Bret wasn't the judge, jury and executioner. Hart always had a fear of being swept aside and saw Michaels as an inferior talent. Who's problem is that? Vince tried to pad Bret's ego with lucrative long term contracts (that no one else was getting) and getting his wins back, etc, but the company couldn't have survived under those stipulations, and Vince knew Bret wasn't worth the money in the long run. that's why he urged him to take the pay day at WCW. By 1997, it was clear that Hart was not content with the way WWF programming was headed, nor was he excited about not being champion. The WWF did the only thing it could, and forcibly took the belt from him in a situation that could've altogether been avoided.
Bret has beccome a martyr because people think he was treated with indifference, but in all honesty, he was being just as big a diva as Michaels, if not more. All he had to do was do the job he was asked.
Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone that Shawn Michaels wasn't a dickhead, but under the circumstances, I would definitely be one too.
Well of course you would think he was inferior when he was pulling and disrespecting EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in the business! Hitman wasn't worried about HBK in '97 he helped push SCSA who was in HBK's sights... Michaels had plenty of chances to prove himself in '96 when Hart was off duty... numbers spoke for themselves... There is definitely fault in both of them and as they say, since that day they get asked about it all the time and forever! |
|
The Golden Gimmick
Mid-Carder
...but brother, I am bad. And they know I’m bad.
Joined on: Jul 25, 2003 22:13:48 GMT -5
Posts: 322
|
Post by The Golden Gimmick on Apr 10, 2019 19:10:03 GMT -5
Well of course you would think he was inferior when he was pulling and disrespecting EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in the business! Hitman wasn't worried about HBK in '97 he helped push SCSA who was in HBK's sights... Michaels had plenty of chances to prove himself in '96 when Hart was off duty... numbers spoke for themselves... There is definitely fault in both of them and as they say, since that day they get asked about it all the time and forever! Yes, the numbers did speak for themselves. Bret wasn't drawing. They needed to go in a new direction. Michaels had attitude and charisma. He is arguably the chief catalyst for the "attitude era" right by Stone Cold. |
|
|
|
Post by HandsomeHollywood on Apr 10, 2019 19:11:09 GMT -5
Bret is the only guy to have creative freedom in his contract and not get use it much. Bret was asked to agree to be let out of his contract. Bret was asked to talk to WCW. Bret was asked to put over a guy who would never do the same for him. They could have fired or stripped Bret. Instead they all lied to his face and pulled the screw job. They acted like cowards. Maybe they should have told Bret to do the job. Instead they asked, he said no, they said okay Bret wasn't going to say he'll do it and then shoot on Michaels. Wrestlers often make decisions against the company. Shawn Michaels frequently refused to put guys over unless they were his friends and he often gets a free pass. I wish the guys in WCW refused to put over David Arquette. I can't help but think if the roles were reversed, people would be championing Shawn Michaels for sticking to his principles. Oh right, the roles were reversed and Michaels refused several times to put guys over. Sometimes going as far as to just fake injuries. Never got screwed in ring by Vader though. Bret wasn't against dropping the belt and he certainly wouldn't have shot on Shawn Michaels. It was the other side totally unwilling to compromise. Here's my take: Michaels will forever and always be the scapegoat in this situation. Shawn Michaels did the better portion of 1992 jobbing out to Bret on the road and on PPV, making him look like a champion. When Michaels quipped with the line about not doing the job for Hart in '96 or '97, he should've added "anymore." No one seems to remember HBK submitting to the Sharpshooter in '92, Bret's first major title defense. Michaels had no problem doing the job then. In fact, their overall singles record between the two is 66-6-1* (give or take a few house show results.) Hart being the victor. So who had a problem jobbing to who? Earlier that year however, Hart was arguably on his way out the door for WCW. So it was a spot that could've very well gone to the emerging HBK. Talk about a root cause for resentment. Just a few years later, take a look at Wrestlemania X. That was The Bret Hart show. He starts the PPV. He closes the PPV. He even wanted credit for implementing the ladder match that would steal the show that night. Even the Undertaker notoriously chimed in saying, "Motherf*cker, not everything is about YOU!" So when it was finally Michaels face time in '96, after years of Hart having his go at the top spot, Bret put up a spotlight fight. Speaks to the degree of his ego. Shawn reacted accordingly by being a diva, but I don't blame him. His time had come, and Bret had an issue with that. Michaels didn't need to prove to Bret that he was worthy. Bret wasn't the judge, jury and executioner. Hart always had a fear of being swept aside and saw Michaels as an inferior talent. Who's problem is that? Vince tried to pad Bret's ego with lucrative long term contracts (that no one else was getting) and getting his wins back, etc, but the company couldn't have survived under those stipulations, and Vince knew Bret wasn't worth the money in the long run. that's why he urged him to take the pay day at WCW. By 1997, it was clear that Hart was not content with the way WWF programming was headed, nor was he excited about not being champion. The WWF did the only thing it could, and forcibly took the belt from him in a situation that could've altogether been avoided.
Bret has beccome a martyr because people think he was treated with indifference, but in all honesty, he was being just as big a diva as Michaels, if not more. All he had to do was do the job he was asked.
Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone that Shawn Michaels wasn't a dickhead, but under the circumstances, I would definitely be one too.
I don't think their past victories over each other 5 years prior has much to do with this. Shawn was underneath Hart in 1992. Bret did the job at Mania 12 with the plan to do a trilogy. Shawn axed that. The personal issues between both are rendered mostly moot to me by 2 points: 1, Bret had creative control in his contract. If you don't want him to have that, don't give it to him. Buyer's remorse is not a legitimate reason to break that. Vince allowed Hogan and Michaels to do whatever they wanted, so it's not unreasonable for Bret to not want to do one match comparatively. 2, they asked Bret to do the job and he said no. Vince could have told him he had to or else, but he didn't. They hatched a scheme. Don't blame Bret for a lack of balls on Vince's part. They lied to his face before, during and well after. Vince being told no by a top star is certainly not unheard of and still does happen. I think it's crazy to punish Bret so incredibly harshly for something Shawn, Hogan, Piper, etc did before so often just because he didn't want WCW to get a brag in. A brag he created by asking Bret to talk to WCW. Shawn absolutely is a scapegoat because him and Hunter are the ones who refused to accept Bret's terms and got in Vince's ear about it. When he broke kayfabe Michaels didn't even get a slap on the wrist. It's clear Vince was enamoured with Shawn for some reason and could be talked into anything to get good with HBK. If I was called by work and asked to take a shift, and then refused, only to have my boss say it's fine and then find out the next day they said I no showed, I'd be pretty peeved. The business overall wasn't drawing and Shawn certainly didn't draw more than Bret, as he was actively being booed before this on his babyface run. We could go back and forth all day but it's becoming clear we're running in circles here on a difference of opinion. |
|
The Golden Gimmick
Mid-Carder
...but brother, I am bad. And they know I’m bad.
Joined on: Jul 25, 2003 22:13:48 GMT -5
Posts: 322
|
Post by The Golden Gimmick on Apr 10, 2019 19:22:06 GMT -5
We could go back and forth all day but it's becoming clear we're running in circles here on a difference of opinion. Sure but the overall record speaks for itself. If you do jobs for a guy while you're under him, you expect him to do jobs for you while you're over him. 1 job compared to 66 isn't gonna cut it. You make the top talent look like a top talent, that's part of the business. Bret's issue was that he didn't see Shawn above him. Again, who's fault is that? He had Hogan-lite syndrome.
The business was changing, whether Bret liked it or not. Bret was not the booker. And he got creative control based on Hogan's tenure. Vince truly wanted Bret to be the next Hogan, but the numbers just weren't there. It definitely was buyer's remorse. So who deserved what? I guess it is truly a matter of perception. For me, I don't feel sorry for a guy that went on to make double what the next guy made. Plus he got a lighter schedule. So he was a victim who made out better than the next guy. What a shame.
|
|
Thunder Chunky
Main Eventer
Joined on: Aug 1, 2010 21:57:30 GMT -5
Posts: 4,545
|
Post by Thunder Chunky on Apr 10, 2019 19:37:06 GMT -5
We could go back and forth all day but it's becoming clear we're running in circles here on a difference of opinion. Sure but the overall record speaks for itself. If you do jobs for a guy while you're under him, you expect him to do jobs for you while you're over him. 1 job compared to 66 isn't gonna cut it. You make the top talent look like a top talent, that's part of the business. Bret's issue was that he didn't see Shawn above him. Again, who's fault is that? He had Hogan-lite syndrome.
The business was changing, whether Bret liked it or not. Bret was not the booker. And he got creative control based on Hogan's tenure. Vince truly wanted Bret to be the next Hogan, but the numbers just weren't there. It definitely was buyer's remorse. So who deserved what? I guess it is truly a matter of perception. For me, I don't feel sorry for a guy that went on to make double what the next guy made. Plus he got a lighter schedule. So he was a victim who made out better than the next guy. What a shame.
How many of those 66 wins were before Shawn won the title? I'm guessing most, since Bret wasnt wrestling during most of Shawn's first reign. |
|
The Golden Gimmick
Mid-Carder
...but brother, I am bad. And they know I’m bad.
Joined on: Jul 25, 2003 22:13:48 GMT -5
Posts: 322
|
Post by The Golden Gimmick on Apr 10, 2019 19:41:43 GMT -5
How many of those 66 wins were before Shawn won the title? I'm guessing most, since Bret wasnt wrestling during most of Shawn's first reign. "It's not winning nothing or losing nothing. It's a belt someone has given you. Vince owns the belt. You do what the man tells you." - Bobby Heenan |
|
|
|
Post by HandsomeHollywood on Apr 10, 2019 19:43:00 GMT -5
We could go back and forth all day but it's becoming clear we're running in circles here on a difference of opinion. Sure but the overall record speaks for itself. If you do jobs for a guy while you're under him, you expect him to do jobs for you while you're over him. 1 job compared to 66 isn't gonna cut it. You make the top talent look like a top talent, that's part of the business. Bret's issue was that he didn't see Shawn above him. Again, who's fault is that? He had Hogan-lite syndrome.
The business was changing, whether Bret liked it or not. Bret was not the booker. And he got creative control based on Hogan's tenure. Vince truly wanted Bret to be the next Hogan, but the numbers just weren't there. It definitely was buyer's remorse. So who deserved what? I guess it is truly a matter of perception. For me, I don't feel sorry for a guy that went on to make double what the next guy made. Plus he got a lighter schedule. So he was a victim who made out better than the next guy. What a shame.
Bret wanted to wrestle. He always could have made more in WCW but knew it was a clown show so he never wanted to go. He loved the WWF. Bret had creative control, whether the business was changing or not his contract didn't change. I don't understand your point about Shawn putting Bret over in 1992 before he was a main eventer having anything to do with Shawn never putting Bret over again. Shawn became a main eventer, not the main eventer. To suggest Shawn would never have to trade wins with Bret ever again after Mania 12 is a ridiculous claim. Shawn also faked an injury instead of doing the job for Bret at Mania 13. I guess that would have been grounds to screw Shawn too. Why can Shawn choose who he does and doesn't put over but it's an unforgivable sin when Bret does it? Bret may have been a mark for himself but he was up for using his standing to put Shawn over. Given that Shawn had a hard time with being told to put Austin over, I don't buy that "anymore" theory. I guess Austin didn't put over Shawn in 1995 on a PPV so he had no right to expect Shawn to give him a rub. Both were selfish and it's unfair to pretend only Bret was. I'm not trying to debate on whether you have to feel bad for Bret or not. I'm merely saying he was indeed screwed, lied to and had a childish scheme pulled on him he didn't deserve. If you think he deserved it, then you're ignoring his contractual right to say no and conveniently turning a blind eye to when others say no. Honestly the point that he had creative control is inarguable. You can hate on Bret all you want for saying he wouldn't put over Shawn Michaels in Montreal, like we do with Hogan's shenanigans but they didn't say "  it" and screw Hogan because it's a callous and cowardly thing to do. If Vince wanted to, he could tell Bret that he had to do it or else. Instead he decided to act like a coward about it with his cool kids Shawn Michaels club. |
|
Thunder Chunky
Main Eventer
Joined on: Aug 1, 2010 21:57:30 GMT -5
Posts: 4,545
|
Post by Thunder Chunky on Apr 10, 2019 19:44:58 GMT -5
How many of those 66 wins were before Shawn won the title? I'm guessing most, since Bret wasnt wrestling during most of Shawn's first reign. "It's not winning nothing or losing nothing. It's a belt someone has given you. Vince owns the belt. You do what the man tells you." - Bobby Heenan That didn't really answer anything. |
|
The Golden Gimmick
Mid-Carder
...but brother, I am bad. And they know I’m bad.
Joined on: Jul 25, 2003 22:13:48 GMT -5
Posts: 322
|
Post by The Golden Gimmick on Apr 10, 2019 19:48:33 GMT -5
Bret wanted to wrestle. He always could have made more in WCW but knew it was a clown show so he never wanted to go. He loved the WWF. Bret had creative control, whether the business was changing or not his contract didn't change. I don't understand your point about Shawn putting Bret over in 1992 before he was a main eventer having anything to do with Shawn never putting Bret over again. Shawn became a main eventer, not the main eventer. To suggest Shawn would never have to trade wins with Bret ever again after Mania 12 is a ridiculous claim. Shawn also faked an injury instead of doing the job for Bret at Mania 13. I guess that would have been grounds to screw Shawn too. Why can Shawn choose who he does and doesn't put over but it's an unforgivable sin when Bret does it? Bret may have been a mark for himself but he was up for using his standing to put Shawn over. Given that Shawn had a hard time with being told to put Austin over, I don't buy that "anymore" theory. I guess Austin didn't put over Shawn in 1995 on a PPV so he had no right to expect Shawn to give him a rub. Both were selfish and it's unfair to pretend only Bret was. I'm not trying to debate on whether you have to feel bad for Bret or not. I'm merely saying he was indeed screwed, lied to and had a childish scheme pulled on him he didn't deserve. If you think he deserved it, then you're ignoring his contractual right to say no and conveniently turning a blind eye to when others say no. Honestly the point that he had creative control is inarguable. You can hate on Bret all you want for saying he wouldn't put over Shawn Michaels in Montreal, like we do with Hogan's shenanigans but they didn't say " it" and screw Hogan because it's a callous and cowardly thing to do. If Vince wanted to, he could tell Bret that he had to do it or else. Instead he decided to act like a coward about it with his cool kids Shawn Michaels club. History matters. Resentment builds from something. That's why I mentioned it. Bret had seniority over Michaels, and that's all. He couldn't do commentary like him. Couldn't cut a promo like him...
In-ring, they are equals. I've seen a hundred Michaels matches and a hundred Hart matches. I'd rather watch Michaels, because he could stand to take a loss here and there. It's a give and take. Scott Hall says Bret had a huge picture of himself over his own bed haha. It's just a degree of ego that a lot of people aren't familiar with.
Now if people want to side with Bret and think he's an ultimate martyr, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that he had his time, it didn't draw as well as guys like Hogan, and WWF had to move on. Who's fault is that? I guess it's Shawn Michaels, haha.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nivro™ on Apr 10, 2019 19:51:13 GMT -5
Lets not forget that it was highly rumored (and Ive yet to see any credible source shoot it down) that Bret was considering jumping ship to WCW in '92 and taking the IC Title with him. If factual, that absolutely had to be in the back of Vince's mind and is all the reason he would need to pull the title from Bret.
|
|
|
|
Post by HandsomeHollywood on Apr 10, 2019 19:58:07 GMT -5
Lets not forget that it was highly rumored (and Ive yet to see any credible source shoot it down) that Bret was considering jumping ship to WCW in '92 and taking the IC Title with him. If factual, that absolutely had to be in the back of Vince's mind and is all the reason he would need to pull the title from Bret. The story I heard of this is that Bret went to talk to them, but the wanted him to bring the IC title, which Bret didn't want to do. They had no interest in him without the belt. I don't think Bret seriously considered it. He wanted to be in WWF. |
|
|
|
Post by HandsomeHollywood on Apr 10, 2019 20:04:33 GMT -5
Bret wanted to wrestle. He always could have made more in WCW but knew it was a clown show so he never wanted to go. He loved the WWF. Bret had creative control, whether the business was changing or not his contract didn't change. I don't understand your point about Shawn putting Bret over in 1992 before he was a main eventer having anything to do with Shawn never putting Bret over again. Shawn became a main eventer, not the main eventer. To suggest Shawn would never have to trade wins with Bret ever again after Mania 12 is a ridiculous claim. Shawn also faked an injury instead of doing the job for Bret at Mania 13. I guess that would have been grounds to screw Shawn too. Why can Shawn choose who he does and doesn't put over but it's an unforgivable sin when Bret does it? Bret may have been a mark for himself but he was up for using his standing to put Shawn over. Given that Shawn had a hard time with being told to put Austin over, I don't buy that "anymore" theory. I guess Austin didn't put over Shawn in 1995 on a PPV so he had no right to expect Shawn to give him a rub. Both were selfish and it's unfair to pretend only Bret was. I'm not trying to debate on whether you have to feel bad for Bret or not. I'm merely saying he was indeed screwed, lied to and had a childish scheme pulled on him he didn't deserve. If you think he deserved it, then you're ignoring his contractual right to say no and conveniently turning a blind eye to when others say no. Honestly the point that he had creative control is inarguable. You can hate on Bret all you want for saying he wouldn't put over Shawn Michaels in Montreal, like we do with Hogan's shenanigans but they didn't say " it" and screw Hogan because it's a callous and cowardly thing to do. If Vince wanted to, he could tell Bret that he had to do it or else. Instead he decided to act like a coward about it with his cool kids Shawn Michaels club. History matters. Resentment builds from something. That's why I mentioned it. Bret had seniority over Michaels, and that's all. He couldn't do commentary like him. Couldn't cut a promo like him...
In-ring, they are equals. I've seen a hundred Michaels matches and a hundred Hart matches. I'd rather watch Michaels, because he could stand to take a loss here and there. It's a give and take. Scott Hall says Bret had a huge picture of himself over his own bed haha. It's just a degree of ego that a lot of people aren't familiar with.
Now if people want to side with Bret and think he's an ultimate martyr, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that he had his time, it didn't draw as well as guys like Hogan, and WWF had to move on. Who's fault is that? I guess it's Shawn Michaels, haha.
Neither were known for their promos. Rewatching 1996 Raw is a chore when Michaels cuts a promo or is on commentary. Bret wasn't a great talker, no, but neither was Shawn. Shawn's promos were often nonsense as he was clearly high or drunk. His babyface fire was pathetic out of the ring with the exception of his teaming with Austin in 97. Bret certainly was a draw. From 92-96 the business overall was down, but Bret's headlined PPVs had the most eyes on them in terms of wrestling shows. Royal Rumble 1993 was mostly built around Bret vs Razor and had a substantial higher buyrate and attendance than WCW's PPV of the same month. Bret sold a lot of merch too. Sure, he didn't draw as much as Hogan but very few have. I'd never take anything away from Shawn's in-ring ability. The guy was a marvel. |
|
|
|
Post by MKSavage on Apr 10, 2019 20:23:52 GMT -5
Lets not forget that it was highly rumored (and Ive yet to see any credible source shoot it down) that Bret was considering jumping ship to WCW in '92 and taking the IC Title with him. If factual, that absolutely had to be in the back of Vince's mind and is all the reason he would need to pull the title from Bret. Lets not forget that it was highly rumored (and Ive yet to see any credible source shoot it down) that Bret was considering jumping ship to WCW in '92 and taking the IC Title with him. If factual, that absolutely had to be in the back of Vince's mind and is all the reason he would need to pull the title from Bret. The story I heard of this is that Bret went to talk to them, but the wanted him to bring the IC title, which Bret didn't want to do. They had no interest in him without the belt. I don't think Bret seriously considered it. He wanted to be in WWF. I saw a shoot interview with Bret a year or so ago and he talked about going to WCW in 1992. I don't remember him saying anything about bringing the belt. What he said was that he felt that after his IC title run that Vince would be done with him and he would just flounder like some of the previous IC champions (Hammer, Tito, Honky, Rude, Perfect, etc.), so he was looking to see if WCW had any interest in him. He said he thought about WCW because he talked to Brian Pillman and Pillman said that he could try to get Bret a good deal with the company. However, when Bret talked to Bischoff (I think, I can't remember who he said he talked to) the deal wasn't better than what he was getting with the WWF and the talks went nowhere. So he re-signed with the WWF. |
|
|
|
Post by HandsomeHollywood on Apr 10, 2019 20:26:35 GMT -5
Lets not forget that it was highly rumored (and Ive yet to see any credible source shoot it down) that Bret was considering jumping ship to WCW in '92 and taking the IC Title with him. If factual, that absolutely had to be in the back of Vince's mind and is all the reason he would need to pull the title from Bret. The story I heard of this is that Bret went to talk to them, but the wanted him to bring the IC title, which Bret didn't want to do. They had no interest in him without the belt. I don't think Bret seriously considered it. He wanted to be in WWF. I saw a shoot interview with Bret a year or so ago and he talked about going to WCW in 1992. I don't remember him saying anything about bringing the belt. What he said was that he felt that after his IC title run that Vince would be done with him and he would just flounder like some of the previous IC champions (Hammer, Tito, Honky, Rude, Perfect, etc.), so he was looking to see if WCW had any interest in him. He said he thought about WCW because he talked to Brian Pillman and Pillman said that he could try to get Bret a good deal with the company. However, when Bret talked to Bischoff (I think, I can't remember who he said he talked to) the deal wasn't better than what he was getting with the WWF and the talks went nowhere. So he re-signed with the WWF. Yes I think I saw the same thing and misremembered it. I remember this being brought up last year or the year before around the dirt sheets. |
|
|
|
Post by Hulkster2001 on Apr 11, 2019 6:59:14 GMT -5
The bottom line is this, Bret screwed Bret. Had he done his job the screwjob would’ve never happened
|
|
