HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
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Post by HeelPiper on Mar 24, 2022 16:11:26 GMT -5
I'm genuinely curious as to why it appears that so many people think that outside of owning their own copyrighted intellectual properties (example Razor Ramon) that WWE also owns the image of a wrestler's ring gear? Unless said ring gear actually has a logo or brand name that WWE has expressly copyrighted, how could that even work?
They own the name "Razor Ramon" for example,and no other company could touch that IP, but how could they ever own something like Owen Hart's "Caution" attire? It doesn't make sense, it's like saying that Jeff Hardy can't wear a shirt he's worn in WWE somewhere elsewhere. He just did FYI.
I even saw the Jazwares guys pretty much allude to trying to stick to territories and looks that WWE doesn't own, but that doesn't make sense to me. WWE owns Kerry Von Erich in yellow trunks because they own the Parade of Champions footage? Again, that sounds absurd to me. It's also contradicted constantly by other licensed wrestling figures.
I'd love to hear some of your thoughts and insights into this topic for sure!
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rodeoflounder
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Aug 13, 2021 11:28:27 GMT -5
Posts: 202
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Post by rodeoflounder on Mar 24, 2022 16:32:07 GMT -5
Copyright can be (and often is) messy and very complex. Without seeing contracts and documents, it's pretty much impossible to know for sure what's owned by who as a consumer.
I'd imagine that WWE has made it a point to legally protect all IP they have even a small claim to seeing as they're a global, multi-billion dollar powerhouse - and for that very same reason it's just not worth risking the lawsuit, having to destroy a ton of unsold product, or having to retroactively compensate them for inadvertently using an image or piece of IP owned by WWE. There's very few entities in the world that could withstand a WWE lawsuit from a financial perspective.
Trust me, I work with licensing regularly in my career as an artist - it's ALWAYS better to be safe than sorry.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Mar 24, 2022 16:37:49 GMT -5
I think WWE own The Fiend's gear. I remember hearing that Wyatt wouldn't be able to use that attire in another promotion.
WWE have also released Fiend merch since his release which kinda confirms it.
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HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
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Post by HeelPiper on Mar 24, 2022 16:39:33 GMT -5
I think WWE own The Fiend's gear. I remember hearing that Wyatt wouldn't be able to use that attire in another promotion. Yea they own the entire character, so anything related to it's appearances are theirs.
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Post by punksnotdead on Mar 24, 2022 16:41:08 GMT -5
I agree with what you're saying. Plus, WWE doesn't renew all of the branding/characterization they have created over the years. Pretty clear that Bryan Clark owns Adam Bomb now. Seems like it's case-by-case. Pretty sure Bret owns the Hart Foundation logo. So PWTs is making Hart Foundation branded items that those guys only wore on WWF TV, at least to my knowledge. Just reaffirms what you're saying. WWE can own a character or logo, but they can't own a character forever unless it's trademarked correctly and then maintained. NWO, DX, Razor, Diesel, sure, but there is likely a plethora of trademarks they've let expire for various reasons.
I think WWE assumes/or projects that they own a lot of things they don't actually own, so fans do the same, and they've got a big scary legal team to push people around. They sent the Young Bucks a C&D over the too sweet, which they didn't even own. I think PWTs has given guys a reason to go and get the copyrights they're associated with if WWE isn't using them. I love seeing that kind of stuff. Chella and Zombie seem to be doing their due diligence. Zombie is making like a Mania 6 era Andre and it's totally separate from any of WWE's licensing. So yeah, I think we're sort of seeing this WWE owns everything illusion exposed.
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HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
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Post by HeelPiper on Mar 24, 2022 16:41:59 GMT -5
Copyright can be (and often is) messy and very complex. Without seeing contracts and documents, it's pretty much impossible to know for sure what's owned by who as a consumer. I'd imagine that WWE has made it a point to legally protect all IP they have even a small claim to seeing as they're a global, multi-billion dollar powerhouse - and for that very same reason it's just not worth risking the lawsuit, having to destroy a ton of unsold product, or having to retroactively compensate them for inadvertently using an image or piece of IP owned by WWE. There's very few entities in the world that could withstand a WWE lawsuit from a financial perspective. Trust me, I work with licensing regularly in my career as an artist - it's ALWAYS better to be safe than sorry. Here's what's not murky to me, anything that can't be copyrighted. You can't copyright plain trunks, or Andre the Giant's black singlet. Basically anything that doesn't have a word or likeness/image that is even eligible to be copyrighted. How can simply owning footage of WCW give you dominion over Chris Jericho's tights with generic designs?
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Post by newgenandy on Mar 24, 2022 16:45:47 GMT -5
I'm genuinely curious as to why it appears that so many people think that outside of owning their own copyrighted intellectual properties (example Razor Ramon) that WWE also owns the image of a wrestler's ring gear? Unless said ring gear actually has a logo or brand name that WWE has expressly copyrighted, how could that even work? They own the name "Razor Ramon" for example,and no other company could touch that IP, but how could they ever own something like Owen Hart's "Caution" attire? It doesn't make sense, it's like saying that Jeff Hardy can't wear a shirt he's worn in WWE somewhere elsewhere. He just did FYI. I even saw the Jazwares guys pretty much allude to trying to stick to territories and looks that WWE doesn't own, but that doesn't make sense to me. WWE owns Kerry Von Erich in yellow trunks because they own the Parade of Champions footage? Again, that sounds absurd to me. It's also contradicted constantly by other licensed wrestling figures. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts and insights into this topic for sure! The biggest problem is people really oversimplify the trademark / copyright issue. There’s a reason there’s lawyers who specialise in aspects of copyright and trademark law. Along with this things like logos, names etc there’s also image rights and that an include along with a persons likeness “recognisable characteristics” For someone like say sid, plain trunks and boots isn’t really all that recognisable - however we can all probably think of 10 wrestlers off the top of our head who’s attires you could immediately relate to being them. Think of it like this: take away the bat sign (which is obviously trademarked) and have someone in a grey Lycra suit, blue boots, mask, cape and trunks over the top of the suit and a blue mask covering the top half of the head people would recognise that as adam west era Batman. There’s some superhero outfits mattel have fo even the past when they also had rights to the relevant superhero line but not really since - I mean they did they ‘silver surfer’ Rey but most people wouldn’t realise it’s silver surfer inspired. It just looks like they forgot to paint it lol. Then there’s also the weighing up of potential costs and legal issues v what the figure brings to he line. If there’s any possibility of potential headache I’d imagine a company like mattel would just stay away. Why bother considering a figure, going through the manufacturing process only for it to be pulled as soon as it hits shelves and then sit in a warehouse while it’s being sorted - they’ll just do another attire
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HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Posts: 667
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Post by HeelPiper on Mar 24, 2022 16:47:49 GMT -5
I agree with what you're saying. Plus, WWE doesn't renew all of the branding/characterization they have created over the years. Pretty clear that Bryan Clark owns Adam Bomb now. Seems like it's case-by-case. Pretty sure Bret owns the Hart Foundation logo. So PWTs is making Hart Foundation branded items that those guys only wore on WWF TV, at least to my knowledge. Just reaffirms what you're saying. WWE can own a character or logo, but they can't own a character forever unless it's trademarked correctly and then maintained. NWO, DX, Razor, Diesel, sure, but there is likely a plethora of trademarks they've let expire for various reasons. I think WWE assumes/or projects that they own a lot of things they don't actually own, so fans do the same, and they've got a big scary legal team to push people around. They sent the Young Bucks a C&D over the too sweet, which they didn't even own. I think PWTs has given guys a reason to go and get the copyrights they're associated with if WWE isn't using them. I love seeing that kind of stuff. Chella and Zombie seem to be doing their due diligence. Zombie is making like a Mania 6 era Andre and it's totally separate from any of WWE's licensing. So yeah, I think we're sort of seeing this WWE owns everything illusion exposed. You brought up something that I didn't even think about, which is WWE letting trademarks lapse and expire. That actually suprises me quite a bit, even if it's something that might not be a goldmine like Adam Bomb. Seems to go against their policy of owning everything they can get their grubby hands on tbh. Excellent points man. I also loved seeing the Bucks take it to them lol. That was cathartic.
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Post by GreyHaze:Big Bad Booty Daddy on Mar 24, 2022 16:50:10 GMT -5
I think as long as they didn’t create the character they should be fine. I don’t see how Owen’s gear would be owned by WWE unless it has specific WWE logos or they made the gimmick. There’s certain guidelines that allow certain interpretations/inspiration to be held without infringing intellectual rights. Look at Shepard Fairey, he won a lawsuit against him if I’m not mistaken.
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MonsoonMan
Main Eventer
SE Wisconsin, NE Illinois figure hunter.
Joined on: Jan 1, 2012 22:47:05 GMT -5
Posts: 2,459
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Post by MonsoonMan on Mar 24, 2022 17:00:27 GMT -5
i think some character ideas or costume concepts came straight out of the wwe art department. ive seen numerous sketches of concepts for attires or looks; mankind, undertaker,goldust, razor ramon, etc
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razorrock
Superstar
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Posts: 741
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Post by razorrock on Mar 24, 2022 17:00:35 GMT -5
I've heard Hall and Nash say in shoots that they tried to get the seamstresses from wwf to jump to wcw.
I could see that having something to do with it. If wwf/wwe employees are making the gear, I'd imagine they have some claim to it.
Then you have someone like Macho Man who paid someone himself (and spent a ton according to some accounts) to make a lot of his attires, so I would think he (his estate) owns that stuff.
Just guessing but this is something I've wondered too..
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Post by punksnotdead on Mar 24, 2022 17:04:32 GMT -5
I think as long as they didn’t create the character they should be fine. I don’t see how Owen’s gear would be owned by WWE unless it has specific WWE logos or they made the gimmick. There’s certain guidelines that allow certain interpretations/inspiration to be held without infringing intellectual rights. Look at Shepard Fairey, he won a lawsuit against him if I’m not mistaken. I'm very curious/excited what Jazwares is going to put out with Owen. Especially since Martha has successfully sued WWE on separate occasions, one being over Owen's likeness use. I would think the only thing off limits would be the Slammy, for obvious reasons, and maybe the King of Harts logo. I have the Micro Brawler of Owen in the black and pink. So I would assume, at a minimum, they can do him in his 94-97 gear without any logos. I think we could potentially be getting a 97 Hart Foundation version of him at some point with the jacket. I don't think WWE is going to be pushing back in any way, shape, or form on the Owen stuff. That's barking up the wrong tree, even for them.
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Post by GreyHaze:Big Bad Booty Daddy on Mar 24, 2022 17:11:36 GMT -5
I think as long as they didn’t create the character they should be fine. I don’t see how Owen’s gear would be owned by WWE unless it has specific WWE logos or they made the gimmick. There’s certain guidelines that allow certain interpretations/inspiration to be held without infringing intellectual rights. Look at Shepard Fairey, he won a lawsuit against him if I’m not mistaken. I'm very curious/excited what Jazwares is going to put out with Owen. Especially since Martha has successfully sued WWE on separate occasions, one being over Owen's likeness use. I would think the only thing off limits would be the Slammy, for obvious reasons, and maybe the King of Harts logo. I have the Micro Brawler of Owen in the black and pink. So I would assume, at a minimum, they can do him in his 94-97 gear without any logos. I think we could potentially be getting a 97 Hart Foundation version of him at some point with the jacket. I don't think WWE is going to be pushing back in any way, shape, or form on the Owen stuff. That's barking up the wrong tree, even for them. Same. I don’t see any issues with the pink and black Owen attires unless it’s something like the slammy attire etc. I remember someone saying that we wouldn’t be able to get WCW Sting which is not true. WWE does not own his likeness. The only thing we wouldn’t be able to get is a Sting with a nWo logo, which is fine because he wore plenty Wolfpac attires without it.
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Post by coldblooded on Mar 24, 2022 17:37:39 GMT -5
Martha and co might have mentioned no WWE imagery on the agreement.
Jazzwares making a blank pink and black attire can be done. WWE doesnt own the pink and black colors for example. So long, theres no logos depicting WWE material.
Owen Hart had his pink singlet in legends of wrestling videogame 15 years ago. Acclaim never consulted WWE about either. And nothing happened.
I just hope, if jazzwares comes up eith these bizaro attires for him, that atleast his likeness and headsculpts are good. I will kindly put them on a custom mattel body.
I dont collect AEW jazz figs, but i do buy former WWE stars. Dustin, matt hardy, cody aka stardust for example.
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rodeoflounder
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Aug 13, 2021 11:28:27 GMT -5
Posts: 202
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Post by rodeoflounder on Mar 24, 2022 17:51:08 GMT -5
Copyright can be (and often is) messy and very complex. Without seeing contracts and documents, it's pretty much impossible to know for sure what's owned by who as a consumer. I'd imagine that WWE has made it a point to legally protect all IP they have even a small claim to seeing as they're a global, multi-billion dollar powerhouse - and for that very same reason it's just not worth risking the lawsuit, having to destroy a ton of unsold product, or having to retroactively compensate them for inadvertently using an image or piece of IP owned by WWE. There's very few entities in the world that could withstand a WWE lawsuit from a financial perspective. Trust me, I work with licensing regularly in my career as an artist - it's ALWAYS better to be safe than sorry. Here's what's not murky to me, anything that can't be copyrighted. You can't copyright plain trunks, or Andre the Giant's black singlet. Basically anything that doesn't have a word or likeness/image that is even eligible to be copyrighted. How can simply owning footage of WCW give you dominion over Chris Jericho's tights with generic designs? I mean it really can’t be confirmed without delving into the copyrights and trademarks. I just know it’s not something I’d be willing to test with my own investment seeing as they definitely do own the footage. Copyright is still a relatively new concept legally, which is why I’m saying it’s messy.
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Post by AttitudeLegendCollector on Mar 24, 2022 18:26:06 GMT -5
Having seen the Luminaries Jericho that Jazwares has just shown, I think Owen’s gear is the least of our worries. Woof 🤢
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Warriah'
Main Eventer
Joined on: Dec 22, 2019 19:46:02 GMT -5
Posts: 3,261
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Post by Warriah' on Mar 24, 2022 19:00:20 GMT -5
I just want the Jazwares Owen to not stand out like a sore thumb standing next to Mattel's HF Bret, Bulldog, Neidhart and Pillman.
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razorrock
Superstar
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Post by razorrock on Mar 24, 2022 19:03:19 GMT -5
I just want a great headscan...everything else is just bonus for me
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Post by MKSavage on Mar 24, 2022 19:04:19 GMT -5
There can be many things that can be owned/trademarked by someone or a company. I remember reading years ago that the WWF sued Scott Hall after he signed with WCW, they said his Scott Hall character was too similar to the Razor Ramon character that they (WWF) created. They complained about his slicked-back hair, the toothpick, the Cuban accent, and ring attire (vest, trunks, etc.) Apparently, as a result of the trial, there was an agreement that Scott wouldn't have anything to do with razors on his tights/ring attire, gold chains, and would dial back the Cuban accent. But Hall could keep the slicked-back hair, toothpick, and other mannerisms that were similar to Razor Ramon because he used those things as the Diamond Studd. It's strange. A lot of guys prior to 1990 owned their own character's name and look because they wrestled under that name, and wore the attire, prior to coming to the WWF. Also, prior to the 90s, it appears guys tended to pay out of pocket for their gear/ring attire. After 1990, it seems like the WWF started to create characters for their performers, gave them new names and designed their look/attire, so they copyrighted those things so a performer couldn't become famous with the WWF then go somewhere else and capitalize on the character that the WWF "created". Bruce Prichard talked about this on one of his podcasts, the WWF has to keep paying each year to keep the copyright, after some time, the company decides if the copyright is worth keeping or not, if they think it isn't they don't re-up the copyright and someone else can pay to own the rights. I believe this is how some wrestlers, like Bryan Clarke, are now able to own their old wrestler's name and likeness - the WWF just didn't think the copyright was worth paying for anymore.
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Post by stc13 on Mar 24, 2022 19:20:30 GMT -5
I've been wondering something similar. Some of the comments during the AEW Q&A really surprised me - they seemed to back away from anything that could have even the most vague WWE association in ways that just doesn't line up with the laws as far as I understand them, or some relevant precedents like the Storm Hogan figures or Acclaim games.
Right now I'm taking a wait and see approach. All of the answers in the q&a were super vague, and right now we have two Luminaries figures to make assumptions off of, one of which is gear from 12 months ago. We can look at the AEW Micro Brawler Sting, which uses two Surfer looks and is under AEW branding. But overall I'm wondering if they simply decided it's not worth any potential legal fight, even if they'd eventually win. Jazwares isn't a large company, and WWE is notoriously litigious. Maybe it's easier to play it safe than run the risk of a lawsuit from WWE and get tied up financially and in terms of product.
It's just a shame, because ultimately collectors are left in the middle - Mattel will only work from the limited roster WWE provides to them, and Jazwares has talent we want, but may not be willing to come within a country mile of the attires we care about.
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