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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 21, 2018 0:29:39 GMT -5
I was an amateur grappler and low ranking indie wrestler until my body gave out. So I have put a huge amount of all the thoughts I've ever thought into thinking about wrestling. This is one of those threads where I try to include you guys in the conversation. I also don't like the spot monkeys are ruining pro wrestling, and it's nice to have mathematical proof that other options exist than to do stupid moves that make the rest of us look bad. I find what you’ve done quite interesting but I’d like to know who are some of the people that you think are ruining wrestling. I understand that people are allowed to enjoy what they enjoy, but Pro Wrestling was created with a proper objective in mind, and wrestlers who deliberately do things that go against that objective for the sole purpose of getting cheap reactions, (such as spot monkeys, garbage hardcore barkyarders etc.) are ruining the perception of pro wrestling and making it harder and harder for anyone to actually make a good living as wrestlers as the Gold Dust Trio intended.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 21, 2018 0:24:11 GMT -5
Simple answer to a complex question: most wrestlers seemingly stop learning after about a dozen moves so the actual result of your calculation is going to be much smaller than the mind bogglingly large number you came up with. Not everybody can be Chris Jericho, who I'm sure would be more than happy to list the over 1,000 moves he knows. As I said, I'm only listing potential combinations of 25 moves from a set of 100. Move of us can name about 100 moves, even if you were count variations of the same move like clotheslines and suplexes. My general point was that there are dozens of simple tactics and combinations that wrestlers could do to be entertaining, that often compensate for a lack of physical prowess.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 20, 2018 23:41:09 GMT -5
What the is this thread I was an amateur grappler and low ranking indie wrestler until my body gave out. So I have put a huge amount of all the thoughts I've ever thought into thinking about wrestling. This is one of those threads where I try to include you guys in the conversation. I also don't like the spot monkeys are ruining pro wrestling, and it's nice to have mathematical proof that other options exist than to do stupid moves that make the rest of us look bad.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 20, 2018 23:39:02 GMT -5
I can appreciate your effort into this. Thank you for taking the time to say something kind. It was a sincere question and I happen to be in a college class at the moment that helped me provide a framework to answer it.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 20, 2018 17:00:22 GMT -5
Professional Wrestling is the interaction of two human entities engaged in the theatrical portrayal of a conflict, within the framework of wrestling's rules and the laws of physics. Generally speaking, the majority of movements achievable by the human body are, in some way, applicable to the confines of a wrestling match. In the field of combinatorics, mathematicians study the methods of possible combinations of a given set or multiple sets. It's a little out of the way form high school Algebra, but just about any person who's taken a college math course will have seen the equation "C=(n,r) which translates to normal person talk as "These are the possible combinations of x number of things from a set of y number of things. As someone who has spent more than half of their conscious existence studying the art of professional wrestling and grappling martial arts as a whole, I have considered hundreds of possible combinations of holds, strikes, sequences, submissions, pinning combinations, and general wrestling tactics. So I decided to question how deeply I had scratched the surface. As you might imagine, not nearly as much as I had hoped. Now that is not to say I haven't become deeply familiar with the roughly 2,000 maneuvers on record as recognized wrestling moves or tactics. But rather, that even wrestling's greatest legends have not exhausted the possibilities of wrestling's creative potential. Not even by a significant margin. This is where the equation I mentioned before becomes significant. Let's pretend that only 100 moves are of relevance to Pro Wrestling. And for the sake of argument, only 25 moves are showcased in any given match. Now if you plug in the numbers C=(100,25) and follow the steps of the formula, you will calculate the number of possible combinations 25 moves out of a set of 100. That is to say, you will know how many possible ways there are to string together any of the 25 moves out the 100 moves agreed upon. So what's the number? If you take 100 factorial(factorial being is the product of all positive integers less than or equal to n) and divide it by the product of 25 factorial by the difference between 100 and 25 factorial(which is 75) then you have your answer. "242519269720337121015504" That number you see in bold? There's no decimal point missing. That's the whole natural number. Here's how you read it aloud. forty-seven quindecillion, six hundred forty-one quattuordecillion, eight hundred sixty-two tredecillion, five hundred thirty-six duodecillion, two hundred thirty-six undecillion, five hundred eighteen decillion, six hundred forty nonillion, nine hundred thirty-three octillion, nine hundred forty-eight septillion, seventy-five sextillion, one hundred sixty-seven quintillion, seven hundred thirty-six quadrillion, six hundred forty-two trillion, fifty-three billion, nine hundred seventy-six million, two hundred seventy-five thousand, forty........ That's the possible combinations of just 25 moves out of a set of 100. And we know for a fact that there are more than 100 different wrestling moves without counting variations of the same general movement. Now, why did someone who isn't a math nerd go to all this trouble? Because I love wrestling and I love creativity. I believe that this provides some grounds for an argument against wrestlers using sequences and spots that make no sense when there are so many potential tricks, moves, spots, sequences etc. that would make perfect sense in kayfabe, that we just haven't taken the time to figure out. Most of you who have been on the forums for the last 8 years know my posts and know where I stand on most wrestling issues. If you go back and look at various posts I've made, you will see where I discussed the comparison of Jazz music building on the central ideas of the genre and that there was still innovations to be made that would have made sense to legends like Miles Davis and Louis Armstrong. I often think of this idea in relation to wrestling, in that I believe there are still brilliant matches to be had that would make legends proud and skeptics change their minds about the legitimacy of wrestling as an art. To conclude, I have a question. "With so many options that make sense in a wrestling context, why do wrestlers bother with moves that don't make sense and hurt their business in the long run?Here's the sites I used to do the math on that crazy big number. www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/discretemathematics/combinations.phpAnd here's the site I used to figure out how to read the number. www.mathcats.com/explore/reallybignumbers.html
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Dec 18, 2017 4:07:48 GMT -5
As much as I love Nakamura, and as awesome as some of his angles and matches have been, Naito is not wrong. While I think that both promotions fall short of what pro wrestling is supposed to be, New Japan's singles contests are so much better at the top level than WWE's have been. Always good to hear from you, Phil. I'll stick with 90's Baba-era AJPW for what ticks boxes for me...everything else now is just me going through the motions... Same to you, Chris! I was just watching Akayama and Misawa against Kawada and Taue circa 1994!
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Dec 17, 2017 15:30:20 GMT -5
As much as I love Nakamura, and as awesome as some of his angles and matches have been, Naito is not wrong. While I think that both promotions fall short of what pro wrestling is supposed to be, New Japan's singles contests are so much better at the top level than WWE's have been.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Sept 13, 2017 16:38:36 GMT -5
I'm almost dead certain they have planned on portraying Braun as the next top wrestler since they signed him. He's a giant that can move better than most world class wrestlers who are half his size, and he's one of the top point 0.0000002% of the strongest human beings on the planet. A Lou Thesz he is not, but dear god he's an attraction. Hmmm....I cant imagine.... ....was planned since day 1 to be the next face of the company. I think they have always seen an attraction level for Braun. Im sure Vince has always looked at him as a guy that could be the next big monster, unstoppable heel. But I highly doubt anyone saw him as the next face of the company. Move better than most world class wrestlers half his size?!?!? Enlighten me. He moves better than Big Show. He moves better than Khali. He moves better than Droz. He moves better than Hornswoggle. He is definitely a fairly agile man for a man of his size. But Vince moves better than him and Vince is 80. And I think your numbers are off on how strong he is. He is no doubt one of the strongest in WWE...but thats not the be all end all of strength. Okay. First of all, I said I was ALMOST dead certain. I did not assert that with total confidence since I was hoping WWE would not do so. Secondly, Adam Scherr was touted by the strength sport world to be the second coming of Bill Kazmier, which is the strongman equivalent of becoming the next Michael Jordan. The difference between professional strongman, as opposed to say Basketball, is that in the NBA each position has close to 100 players who could just as easily do everything that player can do. This is not the case with Strongman competitors. Adam was a world's strongest man qualifier before he retired to pursue Pro Wrestling. That automatically makes him one of THE strongest human beings on earth. There's maybe 500 men who can deadlift over 800 pounds on the entire planet. That's out of 7 BILLION. You see where I'm going with this? I'm aware of them using Braun as part of the exotic express. Mark Henry and Kurt Angle were made to do ridiculous things early on in their careers as well. That does not change the fact that they were two of the greatest athletes on earth. Same goes for Strowman.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Sept 5, 2017 22:49:22 GMT -5
How could not enjoy a good old school hoss fight...MAGGLE If you mean between Big Show and Strowman...its just random at this point. They had their little mini feud. Big Show put him over. Next. If you mean Braun and Lesnar...its bc I fear Lesnar will put Braun over. The way Lesnar has been booked and protected, a win over Brock is a HUGE thing in wrestling. This should be reserved for someone they are trying to position as THE guy. Thats why Roman beating Brock would mean something. Give me Balor over Brock. Give me Seth over Brock. Braun isnt gonna be the face of the company. He is in his position because of anti Roman sentiments. If you had replaced Roman with someone like Balor or Seth, he would not be getting cheered. He would be booed and position in a top heel spot to be the guy to help establish a face. I'm almost dead certain they have planned on portraying Braun as the next top wrestler since they signed him. He's a giant that can move better than most world class wrestlers who are half his size, and he's one of the top point 0.0000002% of the strongest human beings on the planet. A Lou Thesz he is not, but dear god he's an attraction.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Sept 4, 2017 13:57:25 GMT -5
I'm not even on the hunt for Reigns, but if I were to buy one, that would be the one to get at that price. I hope you bought all three.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Sept 1, 2017 22:03:11 GMT -5
They look professionally done! Bravo!
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 29, 2017 15:54:46 GMT -5
John Tenta was badass. Don't speak ill of the dead, man. Not speaking of him personally. But death doesnt make you all of a sudden an important piece of wwe history He was important in his own way, and it's a shame more people don't appreciate the figures. They're great quality and cool to play with.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 28, 2017 17:36:40 GMT -5
I'm hoping they re-release the elite polka dot Dusty. I bought a loose shirt and the SS basic but it's not doing it for me. I'll sell you my elite Dusty if you're interested. He's loose, but in good condition.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 28, 2017 17:33:59 GMT -5
But...but..we need more obscure flashbacks of fat bastards that nobody ever have 2 craps about John Tenta was badass. Don't speak ill of the dead, man.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 28, 2017 17:27:52 GMT -5
I'd feel embarrassed, but if you immediately think of the biblical characters as your idea of the first century common era then I need to be your history tutor. Secondly, the story of Moses & Noah occurred prior to the birth of Christ, so those were from long before the first century as well. Furthermore, 1017 is the 11th Century! You're off by a thousand years just like my title was. Lol XD You couldn't take the 20 minutes to google who was noteworthy in the 11th century? I was just joking around, so that's why I didn't care to get the facts. But it would have been so much funnier if you had!!! You missed a great joke opportunity! Shame of you! Lol
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 26, 2017 23:17:38 GMT -5
"Fantasy 1017" Wow!! We are really going back in time for that one. I guess I would have to pick Moses... was he around still then?? What about Noah?? I am sure Jesus was dead by then.... right?? Either way, what an interesting topic! I'd feel embarrassed, but if you immediately think of the biblical characters as your idea of the first century common era then I need to be your history tutor. Secondly, the story of Moses & Noah occurred prior to the birth of Christ, so those were from long before the first century as well. Furthermore, 1017 is the 11th Century! You're off by a thousand years just like my title was. Lol XD You couldn't take the 20 minutes to google who was noteworthy in the 11th century?
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 25, 2017 19:46:30 GMT -5
I would love for the Cruiserweight Classic to take place on Raw each week now that the Cruiserweights are supposed to be RAW stars. I say Raw and not 205 Live because the Classic should be something that showcases Cruiserweight wrestling to a larger audience and directs its attention to 205 Live afterwards. Have all the current Cruiserweights in there and add a few from elsewhere. So, here's who I would include: Current Roster: Akira Tozawa Airya Daivari Brian Kendrick Cedrick Alexander Drew Gulak Enzo Amore Gran Metalik Jack Gallagher Lince Dorado Mustafa Ali Noam Dar Rich Swann TJ Perkins Sami Zayn (in search of redemption) Kalisto Pete Dunne Tyler Bate Johnny Gargano (Introduction to the main roster) Tomasso Ciampa (Introduction to the main roster) Roderick Strong (Introduction to the main roster) Hideo Itami (could be just the thing to remind WWE fans why he was such a big deal) New Comers: Lio Rush (Before going to NXT) Ricochet (Before going to NXT) Zack Sabre Junior (Before going to WWE:UK and continuing to work indie dates like the others) Will Osprey (See: ZSJr) Rey Mysterio (returning veteran like Tajiri last year - becomes the face of 205 Live) Matt Sydal (before going to 205 Live) Joey Ryan (Before going to NXT) Aero Star (Before going back to Mexico, like Ibushi did last year) Matt Cross (Before going to NXT) Winner gets the trophy and a shot at Adiran Nevillie's Cruiserweight Championship at Survivor Series. I would have loads of vignettes produced like they did last year so the audience knows all they can about the compeititors, and I'd allow the quarter finals and semi finals around twenty minute matches (10 for the preliminary rounds) with the final being a thirty minute classic between Gargano and Ciampa as the big blow-off for their feud. A man can dream. So you're saying we should have the tournament matches on RAW? I like that. I personally think it should be people who haven't been in the tournament previously with the exception of one, but I don't really have a reason for that. Also, Joey Ryan needs to be beaten within an inch of life & strapped in a chastity belt. I despise that slime ball. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 25, 2017 1:05:13 GMT -5
Did anyone else wish there had been a Cruiserweight Classic this year? For those of you who did, who would you liked to see participate? Let's discuss in in this thread. I'll start.
I think the formula Triple H used of selecting WWE veterans, International stars & Independent wrestlers was perfect. The following are wrestlers which I think would be fantastic additions to a Cruiserweight tournament.
#1. James Gibson/Jamie Noble. James is a former ROH Champion, WWE Cruiserweight Champion, & one of the most underrated technicians of his generation. When I watch the matches of James from Ring of Honor during his title run in 2004, I see a wrestler that Danny Hodge would have payed to work with in the 60s defending the light heavyweight championship of the world across the country. Give James Gibson time off to train & prepare down at the performance center, & you could see a comeback on level with Brian Kendrick.
#2. Lio Rush. Lio is wildly innovative, & defies the flippy do stereotype. Lio at first glance is exactly what old school fans complain about, but upon further examination, Lio's esoteric techniques takes advantage of his superior speed in order to compensate for his size disadvantage. At barely 170lbs, Lio is almost too small to be taken seriously as a legitimate professional wrestler, but has overcome so much with his truly unique style.
#3: Paul London. Paul is just like Brian Kendrick, Chris Hero, James Gibson, & so many others of this generation of wrestlers, in that he's a genius wrestler who has had success in the past, & deserves bigger stages that he receives. He would do tremendously well on 205 Live and NXT after the tournament was over.
Random Note: WWE UK should be featured more heavily on NXT & they should be all be signed as full time wrestlers, with the UK title being defend regularly on NXT cards. Which brings me to my next selection.
#4 Joseph Conners. If that name rings a bell, then you've proven my point. Joseph stood out to me during the WWE's United Kingdom tournament for the simple fact that he has a crazed look in his eyes & determination in his every movement. He could become a valuable contribution to WWE in his own way through participation in this tournament.
Others I considered include, but are not limited to: Andrew Everett, Speedball Mike Bailey, Chris Sabin, A.R. Fox. Ricochet, Kushida, Timothy Thatcher if he could cut weight, Davey Richards if he were to part ways with GFW, & in what I personally think would be amazing, Jushin Thunder Liger.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 25, 2017 0:30:26 GMT -5
I look forward to the day that at just one Wrestlemania, the Tag Team Championships are the closer. Tag Teams used to be able to carry a territory, as they did in the case of the Fabulous Fargos. There's no reason a tag team feud couldn't be built up to be the focal point of the product at different points in time. Same for any of the championships or any feud not based on a title. Given the most popular sports in human history are all team sports, why shouldn't tag-team wrestling be just as popular and difficult as singles? Being a tag-team wrestler shouldn't mean you can't handle a fight on your own, but rather should mean that you & your partner are tough enough to fight multiple men at once, or the two of you are brilliant in the art of tag-team wrestling.
The thing that drives me crazy is that wrestling is like Jazz. Jazz is based on improvisation, but always adhering to certain principles which preserve the art. If you break those rules, it's no longer proper jazz. The same goes for wrestling. Wrestlers these days spend so much time doing flippy nonsense & choreography, that they're leaving A GOLDMINE on the table in terms of respectable, sensible wrestling holds, sequences, & angles.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Aug 12, 2017 21:31:58 GMT -5
It's more likely that you will get something you don't want from Series 1 than anything from Series 2. That was my exact thought. It's a shame.
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