noir
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 20, 2007 6:53:47 GMT -5
Posts: 4,278
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Post by noir on May 15, 2012 14:51:21 GMT -5
I've never been able to understand how in this day and age, with all the information and knowledge available to us at the click of a button, that there are still people grasping on to that thread that there is a Chrstian god. Then again, I'm not a moron. Still, it's sad to think with all the prejudice that has occurred in our bloody, disgusting history, that there are still social minorities being treated differently, and almost sub human. THIS is why there should be a voting system in place that requires some sort of general test before voting. Shame, because there are some good Christian people around, and there are some good people from North Carolina, but you pull crap like this and it makes the whole community look bad. So...I'm a moron? You can believe that everything in the Universe happened out of nothing. Nothing reacted with nothing to create this whole universe we see now? Nope. I'm not buying that. I'll choose to believe that there is a God, a divine power who had a hand in creating everything that we see. So your counter-argument to atheism is 'what created the big bang', much like I could ask, 'what created god'. You don't buy a slew of scientifically backed claims, but you do believe an omniscient presence is looking after us as millions die of famine every year. huh. Belief in God/ a higher power as a concept isn't moronic, but belief in any institutionalized God is. It's as if someone in 2000 years finds the script to Star Wars and takes it as some kind of truth. Believe what you want, the facts are there and if you choose to reject them then you're just limiting your own knowledge, that's your own agenda. My problem is when people clasp to this same text that supports murder, slavery, sexism etc. etc. etc. as some sort of absurd moral guideline. MANY of the world's problems are as a result of organized religion. This isn't some crusade against Christians, I once lived with a Christian who believed in evolution, supported homosexual rights and just an all round morally sound guy. It's the 21st century, we're no longer enslaving black people, no longer burning women at the stake, yet there's still subset of people prejudice against homosexuality. it's insane, these people are what slows down the progression of society.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on May 15, 2012 15:54:53 GMT -5
So...I'm a moron? You can believe that everything in the Universe happened out of nothing. Nothing reacted with nothing to create this whole universe we see now? Nope. I'm not buying that. I'll choose to believe that there is a God, a divine power who had a hand in creating everything that we see. So your counter-argument to atheism is 'what created the big bang', much like I could ask, 'what created god'. You don't buy a slew of scientifically backed claims, but you do believe an omniscient presence is looking after us as millions die of famine every year. huh. Belief in God/ a higher power as a concept isn't moronic, but belief in any institutionalized God is. It's as if someone in 2000 years finds the script to Star Wars and takes it as some kind of truth. Believe what you want, the facts are there and if you choose to reject them then you're just limiting your own knowledge, that's your own agenda. My problem is when people clasp to this same text that supports murder, slavery, sexism etc. etc. etc. as some sort of absurd moral guideline. MANY of the world's problems are as a result of organized religion. This isn't some crusade against Christians, I once lived with a Christian who believed in evolution, supported homosexual rights and just an all round morally sound guy. It's the 21st century, we're no longer enslaving black people, no longer burning women at the stake, yet there's still subset of people prejudice against homosexuality. it's insane, these people are what slows down the progression of society. People like you are why athiests have a bad name. Just let people believe in God, no one has the answers so Christianity is as good as any.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 15, 2012 16:07:46 GMT -5
So your counter-argument to atheism is 'what created the big bang', much like I could ask, 'what created god'. You don't buy a slew of scientifically backed claims, but you do believe an omniscient presence is looking after us as millions die of famine every year. huh. Belief in God/ a higher power as a concept isn't moronic, but belief in any institutionalized God is. It's as if someone in 2000 years finds the script to Star Wars and takes it as some kind of truth. Believe what you want, the facts are there and if you choose to reject them then you're just limiting your own knowledge, that's your own agenda. My problem is when people clasp to this same text that supports murder, slavery, sexism etc. etc. etc. as some sort of absurd moral guideline. MANY of the world's problems are as a result of organized religion. This isn't some crusade against Christians, I once lived with a Christian who believed in evolution, supported homosexual rights and just an all round morally sound guy. It's the 21st century, we're no longer enslaving black people, no longer burning women at the stake, yet there's still subset of people prejudice against homosexuality. it's insane, these people are what slows down the progression of society. People like you are why athiests have a bad name. Just let people believe in God, no one has the answers so Christianity is as good as any. This. Could not agree more.
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Post by DontHassleTheHoff on May 15, 2012 16:18:22 GMT -5
So your counter-argument to atheism is 'what created the big bang', much like I could ask, 'what created god'. You don't buy a slew of scientifically backed claims, but you do believe an omniscient presence is looking after us as millions die of famine every year. huh. Belief in God/ a higher power as a concept isn't moronic, but belief in any institutionalized God is. It's as if someone in 2000 years finds the script to Star Wars and takes it as some kind of truth. Believe what you want, the facts are there and if you choose to reject them then you're just limiting your own knowledge, that's your own agenda. My problem is when people clasp to this same text that supports murder, slavery, sexism etc. etc. etc. as some sort of absurd moral guideline. MANY of the world's problems are as a result of organized religion. This isn't some crusade against Christians, I once lived with a Christian who believed in evolution, supported homosexual rights and just an all round morally sound guy. It's the 21st century, we're no longer enslaving black people, no longer burning women at the stake, yet there's still subset of people prejudice against homosexuality. it's insane, these people are what slows down the progression of society. People like you are why athiests have a bad name. Just let people believe in God, no one has the answers so Christianity is as good as any. I don't think Christianity is a good answer at all. Not denying a God entirely, but the Christian god is not one I'd believe in, there's alot of holes in christianity. At best the bible was a set of morale tales to help guide society, some of the morales set out such as those opinions about homosexuals are out-dated. While I appreciate some churches try to amend to that, I don't see how they can still just say "Well, everything else is right, god just er...changed his mind on this one"and "Er, well...god created evolution" when that's not what the book on which their religion was based lays out.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 15, 2012 16:23:03 GMT -5
People like you are why athiests have a bad name. Just let people believe in God, no one has the answers so Christianity is as good as any. I don't think Christianity is a good answer at all. Not denying a God entirely, but the Christian god is not one I'd believe in, there's alot of holes in christianity. At best the bible was a set of morale tales to help guide society, some of the morales set out such as those opinions about homosexuals are out-dated. While I appreciate some churches try to amend to that, I don't see how they can still just say "Well, everything else is right, god just er...changed his mind on this one"and "Er, well...god created evolution" when that's not what the book on which their religion was based lays out. There are holes in ANY belief system. All of the ones I've found are imperfect. Maybe because they're the products of imperfect men and women trying to comprehend truths that our pea brains can't comprehend. Maybe because there's nothing to explain at all. In either case, none of them are perfect. What is the harm if someone chooses Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Atheism or whatever?
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Post by Kliquid on May 15, 2012 17:25:30 GMT -5
The "harm" in people choosing religions can be seen throughout the history of civilization.
Granted, not EVERY religious person is a crazy nutjob who wants to kill people. The vast majority aren't nowadays... But you see the kind of harm that conflicting ideological values and shared holy lands can bring.
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Deleted
Joined on: May 14, 2024 8:00:59 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 17:45:37 GMT -5
I think that interesting, challenge-the-system ideologies can come from both religious and non-religious individuals. Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers, though I don't believe were radically anti-religion and had respect for it, obviously had disdain for the idea of a monarcy and a theocracy or state-forced religion. Marx, though most may disagree with his answer to monarchy and theocracy, was a brilliant theorist and economist, and did have a certain respect for capitalism (he saw it as a phase, better than a slave state or a feudal state, but worse than socialism or communism). The free market Austrian economists like Rothbard and Friedman were brilliant as well and not particularly religious. Then take poets and writers in the '50s and '60s like Allen Ginsberg, Bob Dylan and John Lennon...all brilliant.
Then take Rabbi Yeshua bar Yosef, Jesus of Nazareth...and first century Jewish rabbi, the ultimate religious figure and anti-authoritarian individual who spoke out against the hypocrisy of both his fellow rabbinic teachers and the ancient Romans.
And obviously, various religious/theocratic systems have killed, and various atheistic ones as well. The Soviet Union killed millions under atheistic Stalin, and as much as anti-religion people like to label Hitler as a religious Catholic, Nazism was a totally non-religious system that was into racial science. And remember, even in the deep, deep south the government isn't putting gay people to death in the United States. It's illegal in Saudi Arabia, and was illegal at one point in the USSR, but the government isn't putting gays to death in the U.S.
So, either one can be good or bad.
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noir
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 20, 2007 6:53:47 GMT -5
Posts: 4,278
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Post by noir on May 15, 2012 17:48:56 GMT -5
People like you are why athiests have a bad name. Just let people believe in God, no one has the answers so Christianity is as good as any. I said I have no problem with theism, or indeed christians who atleast don't use religion to justify prejudism and stupidity. BUT, in the context of this thread, issues like gay marriage are highlighted because the majority of homosexual prejudice stems from christianity (and indeed other organized religions). Imagine being born homosexual in a typical North Californian household. then would you still be saying christianity does no harm? also, if you are atheist, I hope you know that you should know damn well how erroneous the statement 'no one has the answers so Christianity is as good as any' is.
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Post by DontHassleTheHoff on May 15, 2012 18:08:34 GMT -5
I don't think Christianity is a good answer at all. Not denying a God entirely, but the Christian god is not one I'd believe in, there's alot of holes in christianity. At best the bible was a set of morale tales to help guide society, some of the morales set out such as those opinions about homosexuals are out-dated. While I appreciate some churches try to amend to that, I don't see how they can still just say "Well, everything else is right, god just er...changed his mind on this one"and "Er, well...god created evolution" when that's not what the book on which their religion was based lays out. There are holes in ANY belief system. All of the ones I've found are imperfect. Maybe because they're the products of imperfect men and women trying to comprehend truths that our pea brains can't comprehend. Maybe because there's nothing to explain at all. In either case, none of them are perfect. What is the harm if someone chooses Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Atheism or whatever? It creates worldy divides that causes countless issues? The amount of wars, murders, invasions fueled by peoples religions is astonishing. The issues can be local, such as hate crimes in your local town or wars and conflicts of which there are countless examples. I truely believe a progessive world of peace will only be achieved when organised religion falls, which sadly I never see happening.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 15, 2012 18:12:31 GMT -5
The "harm" in people choosing religions can be seen throughout the history of civilization. Granted, not EVERY religious person is a crazy nutjob who wants to kill people. The vast majority aren't nowadays... But you see the kind of harm that conflicting ideological values and shared holy lands can bring. People have also killed each other since time immemorial over scarce resources, racial differences, cultural differences, etc... Heck, the white men in this country massacred Indians on more than one occassion (and the Indians did the same) and it had absolutely nothing at all to do with religion. At the end of the day, people are going to fight and kill each other regardless of religion.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 15, 2012 18:16:47 GMT -5
also, if you are atheist, I hope you know that you should know damn well how erroneous the statement 'no one has the answers so Christianity is as good as any' is. If you have all the answers or know where they are, write a book. You'll be a bajillionaire.
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Post by Kliquid on May 15, 2012 18:25:24 GMT -5
The "harm" in people choosing religions can be seen throughout the history of civilization. Granted, not EVERY religious person is a crazy nutjob who wants to kill people. The vast majority aren't nowadays... But you see the kind of harm that conflicting ideological values and shared holy lands can bring. People have also killed each other since time immemorial over scarce resources, racial differences, cultural differences, etc... Heck, the white men in this country massacred Indians on more than one occassion (and the Indians did the same) and it had absolutely nothing at all to do with religion. At the end of the day, people are going to fight and kill each other regardless of religion. Absolutely, but one should at least admit that religion is the catalyst for MUCH of it, if not MOST of it.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 15, 2012 18:38:56 GMT -5
People have also killed each other since time immemorial over scarce resources, racial differences, cultural differences, etc... Heck, the white men in this country massacred Indians on more than one occassion (and the Indians did the same) and it had absolutely nothing at all to do with religion. At the end of the day, people are going to fight and kill each other regardless of religion. Absolutely, but one should at least admit that religion is the catalyst for MUCH of it, if not MOST of it. I would say some, but certainly not most. I'd also contend that if you waved a magic wand and took religion out of the picture you'd still have just as much fighting, just for a different cause.
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noir
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 20, 2007 6:53:47 GMT -5
Posts: 4,278
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Post by noir on May 15, 2012 18:40:42 GMT -5
also, if you are atheist, I hope you know that you should know damn well how erroneous the statement 'no one has the answers so Christianity is as good as any' is. If you have all the answers or know where they are, write a book. You'll be a bajillionaire. nope. never said I did have the answers, I just seek proof which any rational being should do. Heck, the idea of a omni benevolent god looking after me? pretty sweet deal, huh? Unfortunately, there is as much proof of a christian god as there is the spaghetti monster. you know that. yet christians seem to think one is less absurd than the other!? believe what you want, I'm not a militant atheist. In this case, however, it demands attention. Religion only becomes a problem when issues like the one in OP hinder the progression of our civilization.
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Post by Kliquid on May 15, 2012 18:53:31 GMT -5
Absolutely, but one should at least admit that religion is the catalyst for MUCH of it, if not MOST of it. I would say some, but certainly not most. I'd also contend that if you waved a magic wand and took religion out of the picture you'd still have just as much fighting, just for a different cause. The Middle East has been fighting about religion since the dawn of time. I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't be religious -- just that there has to be some recognition of the violent histories of the self-righteous people who have decided that they are the only ones who matter.
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Post by Adam on May 15, 2012 19:02:29 GMT -5
In relation to the topic, I'm of the opinion that gay people would have been allowed to get married a long time ago had it not been for religion.
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Post by /X Metal Sorenges x "Mac Oh J~ on May 15, 2012 19:07:34 GMT -5
In relation to the topic, I'm of the opinion that gay people would have been allowed to get married a long time ago had it not been for religion. I Acquiesce to an extent.
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Post by Rule 30 on May 15, 2012 19:11:24 GMT -5
In relation to the topic, I'm of the opinion that gay people would have been allowed to get married a long time ago had it not been for religion. I agree with this, but, where exactly would marriage be without religion?
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 15, 2012 20:18:54 GMT -5
I would say some, but certainly not most. I'd also contend that if you waved a magic wand and took religion out of the picture you'd still have just as much fighting, just for a different cause. The Middle East has been fighting about religion since the dawn of time. I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't be religious -- just that there has to be some recognition of the violent histories of the self-righteous people who have decided that they are the only ones who matter. Agreed, but I think those people would still be fighting even if religion wasn't a factor at all.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 15, 2012 20:25:17 GMT -5
If you have all the answers or know where they are, write a book. You'll be a bajillionaire. nope. never said I did have the answers, I just seek proof which any rational being should do. Heck, the idea of a omni benevolent god looking after me? pretty sweet deal, huh? Unfortunately, there is as much proof of a christian god as there is the spaghetti monster. you know that. yet christians seem to think one is less absurd than the other!? believe what you want, I'm not a militant atheist. In this case, however, it demands attention. Religion only becomes a problem when issues like the one in OP hinder the progression of our civilization. But the questions that religion answers are questions that there is no proof period. What happens after death? Is there a higher power? If so, how do we relate to that higher power? How does that power relate to us? Does that power relate to us? How did we get here? Is it all just random chance? Science has no answers for these questions. These questions fall out of the scope of science. Religion answers all of them albeit imperfectly.
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