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Post by Adam on May 15, 2012 20:49:29 GMT -5
nope. never said I did have the answers, I just seek proof which any rational being should do. Heck, the idea of a omni benevolent god looking after me? pretty sweet deal, huh? Unfortunately, there is as much proof of a christian god as there is the spaghetti monster. you know that. yet christians seem to think one is less absurd than the other!? believe what you want, I'm not a militant atheist. In this case, however, it demands attention. Religion only becomes a problem when issues like the one in OP hinder the progression of our civilization. But the questions that religion answers are questions that there is no proof period. What happens after death? Is there a higher power? If so, how do we relate to that higher power? How does that power relate to us? Does that power relate to us? How did we get here? Is it all just random chance? Science has no answers for these questions. These questions fall out of the scope of science. Religion answers all of them albeit imperfectly. But how are they answered when they have no evidence?
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noir
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 20, 2007 6:53:47 GMT -5
Posts: 4,278
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Post by noir on May 15, 2012 20:58:54 GMT -5
nope. never said I did have the answers, I just seek proof which any rational being should do. Heck, the idea of a omni benevolent god looking after me? pretty sweet deal, huh? Unfortunately, there is as much proof of a christian god as there is the spaghetti monster. you know that. yet christians seem to think one is less absurd than the other!? believe what you want, I'm not a militant atheist. In this case, however, it demands attention. Religion only becomes a problem when issues like the one in OP hinder the progression of our civilization. But the questions that religion answers are questions that there is no proof period. What happens after death? Is there a higher power? If so, how do we relate to that higher power? How does that power relate to us? Does that power relate to us? How did we get here? Is it all just random chance? Science has no answers for these questions. These questions fall out of the scope of science. Religion answers all of them albeit imperfectly. science argues for proof though, these questions are completely abstract and as such have no means for proof. Look, I love a great philosophical debate, and I'd love to support the notion of a soul (amongst my own social circle, I probably am one of the most spiritually 'optimistic'). However, religion (as history has proven) should be kept far away from political agenda. Religion can bring about positive aspects; if you need a book to tell you to love thy neighbour, so be it! However, if people are believing that homosexuals/ethnic minorities/women/cultures/etc. are below them as a result of said book then it becomes a problem. Yes marriage was originally a religious ritual, but nowadays it extends far beyond that (legally, culturally) and to deny that right to individuals because of the way they were born, with the knowledge we have today, is quite simply unforgivable. It's literally one step forward, two steps back.
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StingerSplash
Main Eventer
Give em' the Scorpion Death Drop.
Joined on: Jun 6, 2009 11:30:40 GMT -5
Posts: 3,976
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Post by StingerSplash on May 15, 2012 21:27:28 GMT -5
You cannot prove God, and you cannot disprove God. However, I have plenty of reasons to believe in God. This being the most important reason:
When I was 12, my 13 year old friend passed away from a six year bout with cancer. I was completely distraught, and could not find an answer to my question of 'Why?' The night of his visitation, I came home immediately and cried myself to sleep. That night, I had a dream, that was unlike any dream I'd ever had before. It seemed real. Too real for a dream. I was in the top bleacher section of my school's gym, and there was a basketball game going on below. While I was watching the game, my friend who had passed away came up to me. He told me that everything was alright and how much better off he was. We proceeded to have a conversation, in which I asked him what Heaven was like. He told me how amazing it was, and how everyone was so happy there. He basically described paradise. But, this felt like I was controlling what I was saying, it was like an actual conversation. Like I was aware I was dreaming, and was in control of what I was saying to him. After I woke up, I thought it was weird, but just thought it was my mind playing tricks on me.
Come to find out, that very same night, Nick's sister, who was just as upset as I was, dreamed something very similar. She was playing the basketball game in the school, and she saw Nick as well. In the same place. Her, while she was playing the game. Myself, while I was watching the game. I for one, don't believe it was a mere coincidence. It was something more than just a dream, and we both had a very similar experience.
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Post by Adam on May 15, 2012 21:36:36 GMT -5
While that sounds like quite an experience that can be convincing, but unfortunately it's an argument from personal experience which to me is unverifiable and can't be directly observed by everyone. Not that you're trying to convince/convert anyone, just my measly .02.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 15, 2012 22:15:52 GMT -5
But the questions that religion answers are questions that there is no proof period. What happens after death? Is there a higher power? If so, how do we relate to that higher power? How does that power relate to us? Does that power relate to us? How did we get here? Is it all just random chance? Science has no answers for these questions. These questions fall out of the scope of science. Religion answers all of them albeit imperfectly. But how are they answered when they have no evidence? You can answer a question without having evidence.
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Post by Mole on May 16, 2012 5:57:34 GMT -5
But how are they answered when they have no evidence? You can answer a question without having evidence. Sure. However, as much as people should be able to accept that, it should also be accepted that, without evidence, such an answer won't be satisfying to everyone. As it has been touched on in here, I think religious people who are also good people get that, as well as atheists/agnostics who are also good people understand the former.
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Post by T R W on May 16, 2012 6:04:30 GMT -5
WHile I appreciate how civil this thread has mostly been so far, let's get back on topic, and not into just a debate about religion in general.
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ncw
Superstar
Joined on: Jun 5, 2011 14:33:51 GMT -5
Posts: 846
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Post by ncw on May 16, 2012 13:24:11 GMT -5
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Post by DontHassleTheHoff on May 16, 2012 13:31:04 GMT -5
You cannot prove God, and you cannot disprove God. However, I have plenty of reasons to believe in God. This being the most important reason: When I was 12, my 13 year old friend passed away from a six year bout with cancer. I was completely distraught, and could not find an answer to my question of 'Why?' The night of his visitation, I came home immediately and cried myself to sleep. That night, I had a dream, that was unlike any dream I'd ever had before. It seemed real. Too real for a dream. I was in the top bleacher section of my school's gym, and there was a basketball game going on below. While I was watching the game, my friend who had passed away came up to me. He told me that everything was alright and how much better off he was. We proceeded to have a conversation, in which I asked him what Heaven was like. He told me how amazing it was, and how everyone was so happy there. He basically described paradise. But, this felt like I was controlling what I was saying, it was like an actual conversation. Like I was aware I was dreaming, and was in control of what I was saying to him. After I woke up, I thought it was weird, but just thought it was my mind playing tricks on me. Come to find out, that very same night, Nick's sister, who was just as upset as I was, dreamed something very similar. She was playing the basketball game in the school, and she saw Nick as well. In the same place. Her, while she was playing the game. Myself, while I was watching the game. I for one, don't believe it was a mere coincidence. It was something more than just a dream, and we both had a very similar experience. As sad as that is, I do believe there's other explainations. Religion can be something to turn to when you're in a vulnerable state like you were to provide easier answers for something much harder to comprehend. Not to be a dick, because the story is sad, but i'm sure you get what i'm saying.
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Post by Kliquid on May 17, 2012 10:27:09 GMT -5
Last night, myself and some other people from the Ron Paul campaign in Minnesota met with Dan "Doc" Severson, a candidate for US Senate.
Doc is a good guy who carries around a "pocket Constitution" with him everywhere he goes. On the vast majority of economic issues, he's dead on point.
Unfortunately, like some who have posted in this thread, he has been incapable of making the distinction between what is Constitutional and what is moral in his eyes. It's this unfortunate intellectual barrier which has caused so many people to drive off the cliff of, "Well then it should be illegal."
He tried to explain to me that once homosexuals have the right to marry, that "hate speech" laws come shortly thereafter, protecting them from people saying things which are deemed to be unsavory.
Of course, this is a preposterous notion which needs to be shut down immediately. In America, we have a First Amendment. This means that individuals should be allowed to say what they want, when they want. Period. If the Constitution, which every Federal Legislator has to swear an oath to, is upheld, no one should ever vote to create "hate speech" laws in this country.
Saying that something should be legal, and saying that you're encouraging people to do it, are two completely different things. From a moral and religious side, I understand the argument that you believe homosexuals are acting against the will of God. I get it... However, isn't adultery also against what the Bible preaches?
Should we be making laws that say that it should be ILLEGAL for US Citizens to commit adultery?
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 17, 2012 11:07:41 GMT -5
There are laws on the books in several states/localities that do make adultery illegal. They aren't enforced, but they are there.
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Post by k5 on May 17, 2012 11:43:38 GMT -5
nope. never said I did have the answers, I just seek proof which any rational being should do. Heck, the idea of a omni benevolent god looking after me? pretty sweet deal, huh? Unfortunately, there is as much proof of a christian god as there is the spaghetti monster. you know that. yet christians seem to think one is less absurd than the other!? believe what you want, I'm not a militant atheist. In this case, however, it demands attention. Religion only becomes a problem when issues like the one in OP hinder the progression of our civilization. But the questions that religion answers are questions that there is no proof period. What happens after death? Is there a higher power? If so, how do we relate to that higher power? How does that power relate to us? Does that power relate to us? How did we get here? Is it all just random chance? Science has no answers for these questions. These questions fall out of the scope of science. Religion answers all of them albeit imperfectly. i believe we are meant to wonder, not be comforted with convenient lies.
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Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on May 17, 2012 12:02:22 GMT -5
Last night, myself and some other people from the Ron Paul campaign in Minnesota met with Dan "Doc" Severson, a candidate for US Senate. Doc is a good guy who carries around a "pocket Constitution" with him everywhere he goes. On the vast majority of economic issues, he's dead on point. Unfortunately, like some who have posted in this thread, he has been incapable of making the distinction between what is Constitutional and what is moral in his eyes. It's this unfortunate intellectual barrier which has caused so many people to drive off the cliff of, "Well then it should be illegal." He tried to explain to me that once homosexuals have the right to marry, that "hate speech" laws come shortly thereafter, protecting them from people saying things which are deemed to be unsavory. Of course, this is a preposterous notion which needs to be shut down immediately. In America, we have a First Amendment. This means that individuals should be allowed to say what they want, when they want. Period. If the Constitution, which every Federal Legislator has to swear an oath to, is upheld, no one should ever vote to create "hate speech" laws in this country. Saying that something should be legal, and saying that you're encouraging people to do it, are two completely different things. From a moral and religious side, I understand the argument that you believe homosexuals are acting against the will of God. I get it... However, isn't adultery also against what the Bible preaches? Should we be making laws that say that it should be ILLEGAL for US Citizens to commit adultery? What I stand by when it comes to politics is based on what I stand by spiritually and morally. And I never said that it should be legal. I just said that it doesn't bother me that it is. No amount wordage and political references you can cite will change that. We all don't agree on this issue, but I believe there's an understanding of why each side of this debate feels they way they do. If not, then too bad because I'm done spinning my tires dude. Have a good one.
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Post by Kliquid on May 17, 2012 12:25:15 GMT -5
Where YOU come from, morally, should be just that. YOU.
Why do YOUR morals give you the right to prevent others from having the same rights that you have?
Under this theory, you should also be okay with KKK members trying to pass laws that say that no African Americans can be married. After all, their morals say that African Americans are bad people and not fit to be married.
What's the difference there?
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Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on May 17, 2012 12:33:13 GMT -5
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on May 17, 2012 12:37:46 GMT -5
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Post by Halloween King on May 17, 2012 12:38:17 GMT -5
You get mad at me and say I say a lot of douchebag things, yet you say something like this. This is about human rights, it should affect everybody. Knock this state, Knock religion all you want, Knock the south all you want, im glad this didnt fly. Not that I hate gays, I just feel it is wrong. What you do in the privacy of your home is fine. Just dont come out and try to force others to accept what you do. Live and let live. You and triplehfan have got to be the two dumbest members here. 1. They're not trying to force sh*t on you, they just want to be able to get married become united like any other person. 2. Just because you think it's wrong doesn't make it so. Cling on to your outdated religious beliefs all you want but no one should have the right to tell someone they can't marry another person just because they're the same sex. If "God" is so against homesexuality, why allow people to be born with that sort of sexual preferance? Just further proof of how absurd, contradicting and illogical religion is. 3. Live and let live? LIVE AND LET LIVE!?! Are you serious? Your stating two people shouldn't be allowed to marry because they're the same sex and it goes against your beliefs and you're preaching about live and let live? Really? You don't have to be gay for this to affect you. It's about human rights, it affect's everybody. 1 They're not trying to force sh*t on you Yes they are. They are trying to take a word like marriage and turn it into something it is not. Marriage is a union of a MAN and a WOMAN. Not two men, not two women. If they want to be together I am fine with that. Do not try and force others to think what you are doing is fine. To me Gay marriage is just a way to sugar coat the truth. If they wanted to call it a homosexual union that is fine, but it sure isnt a marriage. 2 Cling on to your outdated religious beliefs. No where in my post did I mention ANYTHING about religion. So why do you mention it? Why are you trying to take the topic of "gay marriage" and trying to turn it into a religious debate? Do you need to attack others religions to justify gay marriage? 3 Your stating two people shouldn't be allowed to marry because they're the same sex and it goes against your beliefs and you're preaching about live and let live? Really? Yes I am stating that a marriage is between a man and a woman. It is how the word is defined. Now im sure some modern liberal dictionary will define marriage as a union os two spouses but that is a half truth. Marriage is the union of a man and woman. If Gays and Lesbians want to be together they should call it a domestic parnership or something else. Calling it a marriage is just trying to cover the truth. It's a lie, its just people wanting for one thing to be another so they call it marriage in hopes that what they are doing is normal. I say live and let live because I am not trying to seperate anyone. If you want to live with your gay bf or lesbian gf that is fine. Do it in the comfort of your own home. Be with each other all you like. Just dont come outside and DEMAND people call your union a normal union. It is not a marriage it is a homosexual partnership. If they found love, great! Be happy and enjoy. But please do not imply that what two men do is the same as me and my wife do. So lets not sugar coat things and call it a marriage. 4 Human rights What human rights are being trampled on here? Are gays denied they right to live? Are gays being seperated? Are gays being treated as a lower class citizen? No, all that is happening is that courts have stated a marriage is a man and woman, as is defined. I would say it is was a violation of human rights for a gay couple to be seperated just for being gay. Be together gays, you are free to do so.
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Post by Kliquid on May 17, 2012 12:38:29 GMT -5
OKay.
I'm just asking questions. You don't seem to grasp the ramifications of how your stance on this one issue can be used to take rights from every single person in this country in some way.
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Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on May 17, 2012 12:42:51 GMT -5
OKay. I'm just asking questions. You don't seem to grasp the ramifications of how your stance on this one issue can be used to take rights from every single person in this country in some way. I'm sorry you feel that way.
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Post by Kliquid on May 17, 2012 12:43:41 GMT -5
Yes they are. They are trying to take a word like marriage and turn it into something it is not. Marriage is a union of a MAN and a WOMAN. Not two men, not two women. In YOUR religion, yes. But understand that there is no "official religion" in this country. In fact, the First Amendment very clearly states... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Under the FIRST AMENDMENT, there is no stopping me from creating my own religion. Within that, I can claim WHATEVER I WANT to be my morals. The government has no right, under the First Amendment, to prevent my religion from saying that two gay people should be allowed to be married in the eyes of MY "God." So whether or not you personally agree with it or not, those are the facts. The Constitution is VERY CLEAR on this issue.
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