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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 15:56:14 GMT -5
On topic. Billy Gunn was 100% Main Event material. He had a great look, a great gimmick, he was a great bumper, he had unparalleled speed and strength for his size and shape, a great moveset, a fantastic worker, he was EXTREMELY over (not far off Stone Cold kind of over), he was even still over as  when he was The One (just look at the pop he gets when he wins the IC strap from Eddie). Unfortunately he had Triple H burying him backstage, making it near-impossible for him to get any farther. And his feud with The Rock didn't help because it showed his one weakness, he wasn't a bad mic worker, but he wasn't any where near the calibre of The Rock. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 15:57:31 GMT -5
I thought it was Christmas Eve not backwards day today. You're totally right, it is Christmas Eve. I will let the bodies of work do the talking. Dolph is on a much higher level than Billy ing Gunn. Dolph is talented and I like him, but he's literally a discount Billy Gunn, just shorter, smaller, less charisma and about 50 times worse in the ring. |
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 24, 2014 16:02:49 GMT -5
On topic. Billy Gunn was 100% Main Event material. He had a great look, a great gimmick, he was a great bumper, he had unparalleled speed and strength for his size and shape, a great moveset, a fantastic worker, he was EXTREMELY over (not far off Stone Cold kind of over), he was even still over as when he was The One (just look at the pop he gets when he wins the IC strap from Eddie). Unfortunately he had Triple H burying him backstage, making it near-impossible for him to get any farther. And his feud with The Rock didn't help because it showed his one weakness, he wasn't a bad mic worker, but he wasn't any where near the calibre of The Rock. Okay. He had a good look. A crap gimmick. A decent bumper (not on Dolph's level), he was strong and fast for his size though. His moveset was crap. A mediocre worker. You should seriously have your wrestling viewing privileges revoked if you are suggesting that Billy Gunn was anywhere NEAR Steve Austin's level of over. That is one of the most ludicrous statements I've ever heard in the history of ever. The One sucked and so did he. Yea, he couldn't handle the mic against the Rock, you know who could though? Jericho, Angle, Austin, HHH, etc. You know, ACTUAL main event guys. Billy Gunn was never, has never and could never be a main event player. Also, it is a goddamn shame that he, again playing off of the overness that he achieved while riding Road Dogg's charisma coattails, got to win the Tag Titles again this year. The New Age Outlaws beat two guys who, on their WORST DAY, are 50 times the workers that Billy and Road Dogg ever could be on their BEST DAY times two. You're totally right, it is Christmas Eve. I will let the bodies of work do the talking. Dolph is on a much higher level than Billy ing Gunn. Dolph is talented and I like him, but he's literally a discount Billy Gunn, just shorter, smaller, less charisma and about 50 times worse in the ring. I feel like you say asinine things like this just to get a rise out of people because nobody can believe this absurdness. |
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Post by Next Manufactured’s Sweater on Dec 24, 2014 16:11:03 GMT -5
Billy Gunn's problem was he was five or ten years too late. If 1999 Billy Gunn had been in the WWF in 1993 (rather than Smoking Gunns Billy), he'd have been as good a choice for a New Generation top guy as anyone... And even in the Hogan era, Billy would've made a great star to main event the B or C shows a la Duggan, Tugboat etc. But by the time Billy hit his prime, you had Rock, Austin, HHH, Foley etc around so he was never going to be top tier singles in that era. Always seemed more comfortable as a tag wrestler anyway, and he'll go down in history as part of one of the greatest teams of all time -- both he and Road Dogg were much greater together than they were separately. You're totally right, it is Christmas Eve. I will let the bodies of work do the talking. Dolph is on a much higher level than Billy ing Gunn. Dolph is talented and I like him, but he's literally a discount Billy Gunn, just shorter, smaller, less charisma and about 50 times worse in the ring. This is true. Dolph can do more wacky bumps, though, which apparently makes him lots better. |
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 24, 2014 16:12:57 GMT -5
Billy Gunn's problem was he was five or ten years too late. If 1999 Billy Gunn had been in the WWF in 1993 (rather than Smoking Gunns Billy), he'd have been as good a choice for a New Generation top guy as anyone... And even in the Hogan era, Billy would've made a great star to main event the B or C shows a la Duggan, Tugboat etc. But by the time Billy hit his prime, you had Rock, Austin, HHH, Foley etc around so he was never going to be top tier singles in that era. Always seemed more comfortable as a tag wrestler anyway, and he'll go down in history as part of one of the greatest teams of all time -- both he and Road Dogg were much greater together than they were separately. Dolph is talented and I like him, but he's literally a discount Billy Gunn, just shorter, smaller, less charisma and about 50 times worse in the ring. This is true. Dolph can do more wacky bumps, though, which apparently makes him lots better. Oh look. You're back to say negative things about "darlings". Whatever negatives you want to say about Dolph Ziggler and him not having potential to be a top guy, he was, is and always will be, much better in the ring than Billy Gunny. Even without the "wacky bumps." |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 16:16:50 GMT -5
Billy Gunn's problem was he was five or ten years too late. If 1999 Billy Gunn had been in the WWF in 1993 (rather than Smoking Gunns Billy), he'd have been as good a choice for a New Generation top guy as anyone... And even in the Hogan era, Billy would've made a great star to main event the B or C shows a la Duggan, Tugboat etc. But by the time Billy hit his prime, you had Rock, Austin, HHH, Foley etc around so he was never going to be top tier singles in that era. Always seemed more comfortable as a tag wrestler anyway, and he'll go down in history as part of one of the greatest teams of all time -- both he and Road Dogg were much greater together than they were separately. Dolph is talented and I like him, but he's literally a discount Billy Gunn, just shorter, smaller, less charisma and about 50 times worse in the ring. This is true. Dolph can do more wacky bumps, though, which apparently makes him lots better. Dolph's overselling at times is ridiculous. Billy was a good bumper without having to over do it, along the lines of Bret (even Hennig overdid it some times). Dolph at times reminds me of Shawn's ridiculous ott selling in his match with Hogan. |
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Post by Next Manufactured’s Sweater on Dec 24, 2014 16:17:33 GMT -5
Billy Gunn's problem was he was five or ten years too late. If 1999 Billy Gunn had been in the WWF in 1993 (rather than Smoking Gunns Billy), he'd have been as good a choice for a New Generation top guy as anyone... And even in the Hogan era, Billy would've made a great star to main event the B or C shows a la Duggan, Tugboat etc. But by the time Billy hit his prime, you had Rock, Austin, HHH, Foley etc around so he was never going to be top tier singles in that era. Always seemed more comfortable as a tag wrestler anyway, and he'll go down in history as part of one of the greatest teams of all time -- both he and Road Dogg were much greater together than they were separately. This is true. Dolph can do more wacky bumps, though, which apparently makes him lots better. Oh look. You're back to say negative things about "darlings". Getting upset whenever someone doesn't express undying love and world title hopes for them only reinforces that they're darlings rather than being any kind of rational, considered opinion. It's fine for you to prefer Dolph Ziggler to Billy Gunn. It's fine for Anvil Fan to prefer Billy Gunn to Dolph Ziggler, too. Chill out, it's Christmas.  |
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 24, 2014 16:19:45 GMT -5
Oh look. You're back to say negative things about "darlings". Getting upset whenever someone doesn't express undying love and world title hopes for them only reinforces that they're darlings rather than being any kind of rational, considered opinion. It's fine for you to prefer Dolph Ziggler to Billy Gunn. It's fine for Anvil Fan to prefer Billy Gunn to Dolph Ziggler, too. Chill out, it's Christmas. You're right, I should chill out. I am about to go out for Christmas. Also, I wasn't upset about you not expressing undying love and world title hopes for him. I agreed with your statement the other day that he should be used to solidify the mid card. You do come off as very snarky when saying things like "but he can do wacky bumps so he's better." Not everyone that likes Dolph Ziggler is a big IWC tool. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 16:25:58 GMT -5
On topic. Billy Gunn was 100% Main Event material. He had a great look, a great gimmick, he was a great bumper, he had unparalleled speed and strength for his size and shape, a great moveset, a fantastic worker, he was EXTREMELY over (not far off Stone Cold kind of over), he was even still over as when he was The One (just look at the pop he gets when he wins the IC strap from Eddie). Unfortunately he had Triple H burying him backstage, making it near-impossible for him to get any farther. And his feud with The Rock didn't help because it showed his one weakness, he wasn't a bad mic worker, but he wasn't any where near the calibre of The Rock. Okay. He had a good look. A crap gimmick. A decent bumper (not on Dolph's level), he was strong and fast for his size though. His moveset was crap. A mediocre worker. You should seriously have your wrestling viewing privileges revoked if you are suggesting that Billy Gunn was anywhere NEAR Steve Austin's level of over. That is one of the most ludicrous statements I've ever heard in the history of ever. The One sucked and so did he. Yea, he couldn't handle the mic against the Rock, you know who could though? Jericho, Angle, Austin, HHH, etc. You know, ACTUAL main event guys. Billy Gunn was never, has never and could never be a main event player. Also, it is a goddamn shame that he, again playing off of the overness that he achieved while riding Road Dogg's charisma coattails, got to win the Tag Titles again this year. The New Age Outlaws beat two guys who, on their WORST DAY, are 50 times the workers that Billy and Road Dogg ever could be on their BEST DAY times two. Dolph is talented and I like him, but he's literally a discount Billy Gunn, just shorter, smaller, less charisma and about 50 times worse in the ring. I feel like you say asinine things like this just to get a rise out of people because nobody can believe this absurdness. The New Age Outlaws were so hot, that they outsold everyone else in merch apart from Austin. That includes Rock, Foley, Undertaker etc in the HOTTEST period of pro wrestling. You just listed off some of the best mic workers of all time, and even none of them were as good as The Rock. Like I said, Billy had one weakness, and when paired against Rock's greatest strength, he came across looking even worse. You're entitled not to like him, although I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone could like Dolph and not Billy, that's like saying you like Shawn Michaels but hate Marty Jannetty. However some of those statements are extremely ignorant. You're coming across real bitter over the whole thing here. |
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 24, 2014 16:30:05 GMT -5
Okay. He had a good look. A crap gimmick. A decent bumper (not on Dolph's level), he was strong and fast for his size though. His moveset was crap. A mediocre worker. You should seriously have your wrestling viewing privileges revoked if you are suggesting that Billy Gunn was anywhere NEAR Steve Austin's level of over. That is one of the most ludicrous statements I've ever heard in the history of ever. The One sucked and so did he. Yea, he couldn't handle the mic against the Rock, you know who could though? Jericho, Angle, Austin, HHH, etc. You know, ACTUAL main event guys. Billy Gunn was never, has never and could never be a main event player. Also, it is a goddamn shame that he, again playing off of the overness that he achieved while riding Road Dogg's charisma coattails, got to win the Tag Titles again this year. The New Age Outlaws beat two guys who, on their WORST DAY, are 50 times the workers that Billy and Road Dogg ever could be on their BEST DAY times two. I feel like you say asinine things like this just to get a rise out of people because nobody can believe this absurdness. The New Age Outlaws were so hot, that they outsold everyone else in merch apart from Austin. That includes Rock, Foley, Undertaker etc in the HOTTEST period of pro wrestling. You just listed off some of the best mic workers of all time, and even none of them were as good as The Rock. Like I said, Billy had one weakness, and when paired against Rock's greatest strength, he came across looking even worse. You're entitled not to like him, although I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone could like Dolph and not Billy, that's like saying you like Shawn Michaels but hate Marty Jannetty. However some of those statements are extremely ignorant. You're coming across real bitter over the whole thing here. First, you just plainly said it. The New Age Outlaws outsold everyone except for Austin. Key words being New Age Outlaws. Billy on his own would have never been there. I feel like you meant to say "like Marty and not Shawn". Because that would be odd. I like Dolph because he is better than Billy. Plain and simple. As a nine year old, I thought Billy was cool, but looking back, he was never that good. Maybe I do sound a bit bitter and if I come off as rude or upset, I apologize. When I see you go into other threads and bash guys far more talented than some of your favorites I just can't, for the life of me, figure out that out. We can leave it there since we have VERY differing opinions. |
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Post by Next Manufactured’s Sweater on Dec 24, 2014 16:33:03 GMT -5
Getting upset whenever someone doesn't express undying love and world title hopes for them only reinforces that they're darlings rather than being any kind of rational, considered opinion. It's fine for you to prefer Dolph Ziggler to Billy Gunn. It's fine for Anvil Fan to prefer Billy Gunn to Dolph Ziggler, too. Chill out, it's Christmas. You're right, I should chill out. I am about to go out for Christmas. Have a good one, man! Well, wacky overbumping is his defining feature. He's basically SummerSlam '05 HBK 24/7. Tons of fun gifs of it here: officialfan.proboards.com/thread/461969 |
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Dec 24, 2014 16:34:43 GMT -5
Some of the responses in this thread makes me want to rip out my ****ing hair. I don't get the correlation between Dolph Ziggler and Billy Gunn. Billy Gunn had the look and makings of a main eventer. The major factor that everybody is forgetting is during Gunn'a ascension is he was a causality of a deep roster in the WWF. One thing I am glad Billy Gunn did was trying his best to protect his body. Performers shouldn't have to oversell for the sake of their health. Sure the audience pops huge when performers risk their health for the fans. Ziggler's way of bumping is not a good thing. Look at what happened to Curt Hennig. Once his injured his back, he was never the same.
Going back to Billy Gunn, he oozed charisma. As did the Road Dogg. Everybody has to remember, the New Age Outlaws were a makeshift tag team that blossomed into one of the top attractions during the Attitude Era. I was a fan of the Smoking Gunns. For a guy his size, Billy Gun can sure move in the ring. Case in point, The NAO were one of the top merchandise sellers during the Attitude Era.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 24, 2014 16:37:02 GMT -5
You're right, I should chill out. I am about to go out for Christmas. Have a good one, man! Well, wacky overbumping is his defining feature. He's basically SummerSlam '05 HBK 24/7. Tons of fun gifs of it here: officialfan.proboards.com/thread/461969I do admit, Dolph oversells a ton. I was never a big fan of that. I feel that he has done that a bit less lately though. He could have gone WAY overboard at TLC, but didn't. Also, Shawn vs. Hogan is a favorite of mine for the sheer ridiculousness of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 16:45:18 GMT -5
The New Age Outlaws were so hot, that they outsold everyone else in merch apart from Austin. That includes Rock, Foley, Undertaker etc in the HOTTEST period of pro wrestling. You just listed off some of the best mic workers of all time, and even none of them were as good as The Rock. Like I said, Billy had one weakness, and when paired against Rock's greatest strength, he came across looking even worse. You're entitled not to like him, although I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone could like Dolph and not Billy, that's like saying you like Shawn Michaels but hate Marty Jannetty. However some of those statements are extremely ignorant. You're coming across real bitter over the whole thing here. First, you just plainly said it. The New Age Outlaws outsold everyone except for Austin. Key words being New Age Outlaws. Billy on his own would have never been there. I feel like you meant to say "like Marty and not Shawn". Because that would be odd. I like Dolph because he is better than Billy. Plain and simple. As a nine year old, I thought Billy was cool, but looking back, he was never that good. Maybe I do sound a bit bitter and if I come off as rude or upset, I apologize. When I see you go into other threads and bash guys far more talented than some of your favorites I just can't, for the life of me, figure out that out. We can leave it there since we have VERY differing opinions. We don't know that at all. As we can plainly see, Billy was over as hell. The crowd wanted him to get the title in his post-Summerslam match with Hunter, the crowd popped huge for him when he came out as Austin's partner, and when he won the IC title in 00, those are just a few examples of his popularity of course (spanning early 98- late 00). Road Dogg was nothing without Billy Gunn, because he was an average worker. He needed Billy to carry him. As has been said previously, Billy shouldn't have been put back in DX (which was BTW, 100% Triple H's idea). Billy also had a ton more competition to deal with in his day. The roster was never more stacked with stars than it was from 98-02 (Billy's peak years). Right now we really only have Cena, Orton and a few part timers. I always considered Marty to be at least as good as Shawn in the ring, so either is applicable. You seem to have me confused with someone who dislikes Dolph. I like Dolph, I'd rate him as a top 5 going today. Partly because he reminds me of Gunn. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Dec 24, 2014 16:49:28 GMT -5
 Come on, guys, it's Christmas!! If Dolph and Billy can get a long, why can't everyone on here?? Both men have similarities to each other, and I was a huge Billy Gunn fan, because he reminded me of a jacked up version of Shawn Michaels. And Dolph Ziggler is like Shawn and Billy at times in appearance and style. So how about we all just agree to like who we like, and that's cool! |
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 24, 2014 16:52:22 GMT -5
First, you just plainly said it. The New Age Outlaws outsold everyone except for Austin. Key words being New Age Outlaws. Billy on his own would have never been there. I feel like you meant to say "like Marty and not Shawn". Because that would be odd. I like Dolph because he is better than Billy. Plain and simple. As a nine year old, I thought Billy was cool, but looking back, he was never that good. Maybe I do sound a bit bitter and if I come off as rude or upset, I apologize. When I see you go into other threads and bash guys far more talented than some of your favorites I just can't, for the life of me, figure out that out. We can leave it there since we have VERY differing opinions. We don't know that at all. As we can plainly see, Billy was over as hell. The crowd wanted him to get the title in his post-Summerslam match with Hunter, the crowd popped huge for him when he came out as Austin's partner, and when he won the IC title in 00, those are just a few examples of his popularity of course (spanning early 98- late 00). Road Dogg was nothing without Billy Gunn, because he was an average worker. He needed Billy to carry him. As has been said previously, Billy shouldn't have been put back in DX (which was BTW, 100% Triple H's idea). Billy also had a ton more competition to deal with in his day. The roster was never more stacked with stars than it was from 98-02 (Billy's peak years). Right now we really only have Cena, Orton and a few part timers. I always considered Marty to be at least as good as Shawn in the ring, so either is applicable. You seem to have me confused with someone who dislikes Dolph. I like Dolph, I'd rate him as a top 5 going today. Partly because he reminds me of Gunn. Oh, don't get me wrong, he'd be in better position nowadays than in his prime. That's clear. It's also clear about him being the guy to carry Road Dogg in the ring, while Road Dogg carried him with his charisma. Billy was over, but I still feel that it was because he was with Road Dogg and DX. His singles run flopped. Maybe they put him back with DX at the end of 1999 because they knew that it was too crowded at the top and maybe he would have been better off in his comfort zone, tag team wrestling. If he doesn't go back with DX, he gets lost in the shuffle as there were guys around who were WAY more talented. Again, we have VASTLY different opinions on talent as Shawn was clearly superior to Marty. But hey, whatever floats your boat. |
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Post by Kanenite on Dec 24, 2014 16:52:30 GMT -5
I think he was damn good, but the thing is he was in a roster with Rock, Austin, Triple H, Undertaker, Kane, Mankind and more. The top level talent was stacked!
Maybe if he never had to lose the Mr. Ass gimmick or team with Chuck, he could of been stepped up to the Main Event scene of one of the brands in 2002.
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Post by cordless2016 on Dec 24, 2014 16:58:20 GMT -5
During the Attitude Era, Gunn was a midcarder. With legit top stars like Austin and Rock who transcended the business, and legit main eventers like Taker, Foley, HHH, Kane, and Big Show around as well, Gunn didn't have the stuff to stick out. When Angle debuted and Jericho and the Radicalz jumped ship in late '99-00, it really pushed him down the card.
Sure he was above average in the ring but he sucked on the mic. If he was in his prime from '04-'10 when there were 2 world titles, I could see him being a main eventer with the lack of top stars. But during the Attitude Era, he went as far as he could.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 16:59:40 GMT -5
We don't know that at all. As we can plainly see, Billy was over as hell. The crowd wanted him to get the title in his post-Summerslam match with Hunter, the crowd popped huge for him when he came out as Austin's partner, and when he won the IC title in 00, those are just a few examples of his popularity of course (spanning early 98- late 00). Road Dogg was nothing without Billy Gunn, because he was an average worker. He needed Billy to carry him. As has been said previously, Billy shouldn't have been put back in DX (which was BTW, 100% Triple H's idea). Billy also had a ton more competition to deal with in his day. The roster was never more stacked with stars than it was from 98-02 (Billy's peak years). Right now we really only have Cena, Orton and a few part timers. I always considered Marty to be at least as good as Shawn in the ring, so either is applicable. You seem to have me confused with someone who dislikes Dolph. I like Dolph, I'd rate him as a top 5 going today. Partly because he reminds me of Gunn. Oh, don't get me wrong, he'd be in better position nowadays than in his prime. That's clear. It's also clear about him being the guy to carry Road Dogg in the ring, while Road Dogg carried him with his charisma. Billy was over, but I still feel that it was because he was with Road Dogg and DX. His singles run flopped. Maybe they put him back with DX at the end of 1999 because they knew that it was too crowded at the top and maybe he would have been better off in his comfort zone, tag team wrestling. If he doesn't go back with DX, he gets lost in the shuffle as there were guys around who were WAY more talented. Again, we have VASTLY different opinions on talent as Shawn was clearly superior to Marty. But hey, whatever floats your boat. Billy also suffered again when he was injured and they couldn't go through with him as Austin's hit and run driver as they'd intended. He's kind of a victim of bad timing and bad booking. Shawn had more charisma, but I think Marty had a slight edge in the ring. Shawn just had more opportunities to show himself off with big fights throughout his career. |
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 24, 2014 17:03:18 GMT -5
Oh, don't get me wrong, he'd be in better position nowadays than in his prime. That's clear. It's also clear about him being the guy to carry Road Dogg in the ring, while Road Dogg carried him with his charisma. Billy was over, but I still feel that it was because he was with Road Dogg and DX. His singles run flopped. Maybe they put him back with DX at the end of 1999 because they knew that it was too crowded at the top and maybe he would have been better off in his comfort zone, tag team wrestling. If he doesn't go back with DX, he gets lost in the shuffle as there were guys around who were WAY more talented. Again, we have VASTLY different opinions on talent as Shawn was clearly superior to Marty. But hey, whatever floats your boat. Billy also suffered again when he was injured and they couldn't go through with him as Austin's hit and run driver as they'd intended. He's kind of a victim of bad timing and bad booking. Shawn had more charisma, but I think Marty had a slight edge in the ring. Shawn just had more opportunities to show himself off with big fights throughout his career. I think revealing him as the driver behind the Austin hit would have been better than Rikishi, but I still don't think it would have gone over well. As you even said, he didn't have the mic skills to pull it off and was less over than Rikishi at the time of the reveal. |
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