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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Dec 24, 2014 17:04:42 GMT -5
During the Attitude Era, Gunn was a midcarder. With legit top stars like Austin and Rock who transcended the business, and legit main eventers like Taker, Foley, HHH, Kane, and Big Show around as well, Gunn didn't have the stuff to stick out. When Angle debuted and Jericho and the Radicalz jumped ship in late '99-00, it really pushed him down the card. Sure he was above average in the ring but he sucked on the mic. If he was in his prime from '04-'10 when there were 2 world titles, I could see him being a main eventer with the lack of top stars. But during the Attitude Era, he went as far as he could. This best exemplifies why timing means everything in the industry. Billy Gunn was at the right place but the timing was off. Way off for him. Of which, didn't bode well for him. The deep roster the WWF had hurt Gunn's chances of making it any higher on the card. If people want to compare it to today's roster, the machine doesn't like giving chances to certain performers. Dolph Ziggler is an example of that. How many times can you go-stop-go-stop-go with a performers push. The best time for a performer to made a dent is going with the guy the first time around. With the depth in the WWF's roster, they gave Gunn a taste of being a main eventer but the go-stop motion was Gunn's biggest detriment. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 17:07:25 GMT -5
Billy also suffered again when he was injured and they couldn't go through with him as Austin's hit and run driver as they'd intended. He's kind of a victim of bad timing and bad booking. Shawn had more charisma, but I think Marty had a slight edge in the ring. Shawn just had more opportunities to show himself off with big fights throughout his career. I think revealing him as the driver behind the Austin hit would have been better than Rikishi, but I still don't think it would have gone over well. As you even said, he didn't have the mic skills to pull it off and was less over than Rikishi at the time of the reveal. Turning Rikishi heel basically ruined his career lol. I think it would have worked out way better for Billy, he already worked well as a heel and with Austin injured and I believe Undertaker too, there was a gap there for someone to head into the ME scene. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Dec 24, 2014 17:16:53 GMT -5
I think revealing him as the driver behind the Austin hit would have been better than Rikishi, but I still don't think it would have gone over well. As you even said, he didn't have the mic skills to pull it off and was less over than Rikishi at the time of the reveal. Turning Rikishi heel basically ruined his career lol. I think it would have worked out way better for Billy, he already worked well as a heel and with Austin injured and I believe Undertaker too, there was a gap there for someone to head into the ME scene. Sadly it wouldn't have worked though. Even if Billy Gunn was the man who ran over Austin, the end result would still benefit Triple H. No matter who was in that position, they were just there to be a whipping boy for Austin's return, and then Triple H would take over the feud with Austin. The only way Billy Gunn would have had any real shot, would have been to have him win the IC Title at Royal Rumble 99 (like he was supposed too) and spend that entire year being in the IC Title picture. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 17:18:12 GMT -5
Turning Rikishi heel basically ruined his career lol. I think it would have worked out way better for Billy, he already worked well as a heel and with Austin injured and I believe Undertaker too, there was a gap there for someone to head into the ME scene. Sadly it wouldn't have worked though. Even if Billy Gunn was the man who ran over Austin, the end result would still benefit Triple H. No matter who was in that position, they were just there to be a whipping boy for Austin's return, and then Triple H would take over the feud with Austin. The only way Billy Gunn would have had any real shot, would have been to have him win the IC Title at Royal Rumble 99 (like he was supposed too) and spend that entire year being in the IC Title picture. Uh, I still hate that Vince Russo did the switch with Road Dogg and Billy heading into WM15. |
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mrassbillygunn
Main Eventer
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Post by mrassbillygunn on Dec 24, 2014 17:23:22 GMT -5
Na. Billy got over thanks to his looks and Roadogg. Dolph Ziggler is the better performer and talker by the way but Ziggy is a tad overrated as well. One area where they are actually similar in regards to wrestling and Ziggy has got better at this to be fair is they both flop around like a fish out of water rather than taking their time to sell.
He was someone that could have benefitted with a scripted promo back then. I was a huge fan dont get me wrong but I dont think he was main event material, no. He should never have been a heel. NEVER. I guess the Mr.Ass name was just a heat magnet but he should have remained a baby face and perhaps he might have done better as a main eventer.
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Post by Hendrix83 on Dec 24, 2014 18:03:12 GMT -5
Billy Gunn's main problem was not his lack of microphone skills. It was that he was born too early.
I would love to hear the argument that a 1999 Billy Gunn debuting during the PG Era wouldn't have been World Champion.
It's just another case of timing being everything in this business. When you're in the middle of the greatest decade in wrestling history (the 90's), how do you compete with Stone Cold, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, The Rock, Undertaker, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and so on.... But then you have this PG Era where guys like The Miz, Alberto Del Rio and Sheamus are World Championship material? Those guys would have been lucky to be European Champion back then.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Dec 24, 2014 21:22:44 GMT -5
Billy Gunn's main problem was not his lack of microphone skills. It was that he was born too early. I would love to hear the argument that a 1999 Billy Gunn debuting during the PG Era wouldn't have been World Champion. It's just another case of timing being everything in this business. When you're in the middle of the greatest decade in wrestling history (the 90's), how do you compete with Stone Cold, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, The Rock, Undertaker, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and so on.... But then you have this PG Era where guys like The Miz, Alberto Del Rio and Sheamus are World Championship material? Those guys would have been lucky to be European Champion back then. I am glad you and I realize that timing is essential in wrestling. Many of the guys today wouldn't have been given prominent spots on the roster had they been there in the late-90's. The machine gave guys like The Miz, Sheamus, and Alberto Del Rio reigns as a world champion expecting them to get over. Which is a complete farce by all means. I believe in today's PG environment, a guy like Billy Gunn would have been give max one reign as world champion. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 0:42:58 GMT -5
It's 'thoughts' - you don't need an apostrophe.
On topic, upper midcard suited him fine.
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Post by Nivro™ on Dec 25, 2014 1:36:32 GMT -5
Billy Gunn was a B rated (singles) talent at best. Was he bad? No. Was he great? No....He was 1/2 of a solid tag team that could get the job done and had respectful feuds against guys who were already top tier talent. Guess what, Road Warrior Hawk was 1/2 of a solid tag team and had great feuds against guys that were already top tier talent (like Flair)....Hawk wasnt a main eventer either.
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Post by HVMMONS on Dec 25, 2014 1:41:19 GMT -5
He could've been more of a star than he already was. I respect everyone's opinion, but he was over. Multiple times. I agree with what Hendrix83 said. 100% |
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Post by K5 on Dec 25, 2014 3:26:39 GMT -5
he was there in the ring. his character was never properly developed - rather that's his fault or the wwe's, who knows.
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Post by K5 on Dec 25, 2014 3:32:22 GMT -5
most of those are great bumps/selling...  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 3:54:25 GMT -5
I always thought changing Billy's nickname from Badass to Mr Ass was a mistake because he was never gonna go anywhere as Mr Ass IMO.
Vinnie's estimations of Billy were fairly low too.....when Vince & Austin were deciding who the next top heel was gonna be Billy finished last after the other contenders HHH & Jeff Jarrett. he was given the KOTR to see could he take the ball and run with it(even though Vince had his mind made up about HHH by this time) and his run flopped.
Billy being put in a feud with Rock was VERY bad for him....he needed a feud he was gonna win IMO.....and Vince was NEVER gonna put him over on Rock because by that time they knew Austin was f*cked and Rock was their guy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 8:01:22 GMT -5
I actually thought The One was a really good move for him. It took him into a more serious direction, he wasn't a gimmick, it was just a nickname, more like Bret and Shawn. I think it'd have been a good time to pull the trigger on him. He always seemed like he was on the cusp of a push (final 4 in the rumble, performance at Survivor Series etc) but it never seemed to materialise. He was still over as hell at the start of his The One run. Billy and Chuck basically ruined his career in the long run, because the crowd never really forgave him for it. I always thought changing Billy's nickname from Badass to Mr Ass was a mistake because he was never gonna go anywhere as Mr Ass IMO. Vinnie's estimations of Billy were fairly low too.....when Vince & Austin were deciding who the next top heel was gonna be Billy finished last after the other contenders HHH & Jeff Jarrett. he was given the KOTR to see could he take the ball and run with it(even though Vince had his mind made up about HHH by this time) and his run flopped. Billy being put in a feud with Rock was VERY bad for him....he needed a feud he was gonna win IMO.....and Vince was NEVER gonna put him over on Rock because by that time they knew Austin was f*cked and Rock was their guy. Billy's KOTR only flopped because X-Pac was the original winner. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 11:08:35 GMT -5
Damn...I missed all dis?
Anyway, I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but if Billy Gunn had "IT" to be a main event talent then he would've been.
There was no better time for him than the Attitude Era. If he wasn't going to break through the glass ceiling during that era then it was NEVER going to happen.
He didn't and it didn't. Therefore, Billy Gunn did NOT have the talents to be a main event talent.
There were SO many workers more talented than Billy Gunn at the time who shined and broke through into main event status. If they could do it then what was Billy's excuse? Hell, he even got more of an "office push" by winning KOTR and STILL couldn't get himself over to that consistent main event status.
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Post by Brunt's Left Foot on Dec 25, 2014 11:36:39 GMT -5
I've never seen as much love for Billy Gunn as as I have on this forum. And it all seems to revolve around some weird cult of personality that Anvil Fan has. Years ago he was one of the only people I've ever seen suggest that Gunn could be world champion and now suddenly we have a thread like this where half of the people in it seem to think he would have been a good world champ.
It's just so bizarre.
Also there's nothing wrong with liking someone a whole lot but accepting their limitations. Billy Gunn was average in the ring and only got over when he was in tag teams. I can't recall him ever having a great match yet somehow he's better in the ring than Dolph Ziggler, who's had several MOTY candidates just in the past 12 months? I don't think so.
It's one thing to have an opinion contrary to the norm but at least back it up to form some kind of cogent argument.
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Post by K5 on Dec 25, 2014 12:31:09 GMT -5
Also there's nothing wrong with liking someone a whole lot but accepting their limitations. Billy Gunn was average in the ring and only got over when he was in tag teams. I can't recall him ever having a great match yet somehow he's better in the ring than Dolph Ziggler, who's had several MOTY candidates just in the past 12 months? I don't think so.It's one thing to have an opinion contrary to the norm but at least back it up to form some kind of cogent argument. nailed it. people on this forum can like billy gunn as much as they like, but the dude didn't have a single match in his whole career that could compare to ziggler's most recent ppv outing. |
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 25, 2014 12:53:00 GMT -5
Also there's nothing wrong with liking someone a whole lot but accepting their limitations. Billy Gunn was average in the ring and only got over when he was in tag teams. I can't recall him ever having a great match yet somehow he's better in the ring than Dolph Ziggler, who's had several MOTY candidates just in the past 12 months? I don't think so.It's one thing to have an opinion contrary to the norm but at least back it up to form some kind of cogent argument. nailed it. people on this forum can like billy gunn as much as they like, but the dude didn't have a single match in his whole career that could compare to ziggler's most recent ppv outing. Oh, look at you guys making sense. |
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Post by Hendrix83 on Dec 25, 2014 13:32:42 GMT -5
Damn...I missed all dis? Anyway, I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but if Billy Gunn had "IT" to be a main event talent then he would've been. There was no better time for him than the Attitude Era. If he wasn't going to break through the glass ceiling during that era then it was NEVER going to happen. He didn't and it didn't. Therefore, Billy Gunn did NOT have the talents to be a main event talent. There were SO many workers more talented than Billy Gunn at the time who shined and broke through into main event status. If they could do it then what was Billy's excuse? Hell, he even got more of an "office push" by winning KOTR and STILL couldn't get himself over to that consistent main event status. I would say that argument is logically flawed. To say, "If [Billy Gunn] wasn't going to break through the glass ceiling during [The Attitude] era then it was NEVER going to happen." Is no different from saying, "If [The Miz] was going to break through the glass ceiling during [The PG] era then it was ALWAYS going to happen." That is just not the truth. Billy Gunn had more talent than so many World Champions of the past 10 years. He couldn't talk, but hell if he was around now I'm sure they'd script him something to say anyway. Look at Roman Reigns being pushed to the moon, greener than the grass on your front lawn. |
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 25, 2014 13:47:32 GMT -5
Damn...I missed all dis? Anyway, I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but if Billy Gunn had "IT" to be a main event talent then he would've been. There was no better time for him than the Attitude Era. If he wasn't going to break through the glass ceiling during that era then it was NEVER going to happen. He didn't and it didn't. Therefore, Billy Gunn did NOT have the talents to be a main event talent. There were SO many workers more talented than Billy Gunn at the time who shined and broke through into main event status. If they could do it then what was Billy's excuse? Hell, he even got more of an "office push" by winning KOTR and STILL couldn't get himself over to that consistent main event status. I would say that argument is logically flawed. To say, "If [Billy Gunn] wasn't going to break through the glass ceiling during [The Attitude] era then it was NEVER going to happen." Is no different from saying, "If [The Miz] was going to break through the glass ceiling during [The PG] era then it was ALWAYS going to happen." That is just not the truth. Billy Gunn had more talent than so many World Champions of the past 10 years. He couldn't talk, but hell if he was around now I'm sure they'd script him something to say anyway. Look at Roman Reigns being pushed to the moon, greener than the grass on your front lawn. I agree that the WWE would have probably given him a World Title run on Smackdown if he was around currently, because seemingly everyone got one. However, let's look at the Champions of the past ten years. I'll start with the WWE Title to see who Billy was more talented than. JBL - Billy had more talent, JBL was way more over as a heel and earned this run John Cena - Nope. Edge - Please. Nope. Rob Van Dam - Negative. Randy Orton- Again, nope. Triple H - What a surprise, nope. Jeff Hardy - Nope. Batista - No. Sheamus - No. The Miz - Like JBL, Billy has more talent than him, but again, Miz was pretty great at drawing heat. CM Punk - Don't make me laugh. Nope. Rey Mysterio - No. Alberto Del Rio - No, but Billy was more over. The Rock - Ha. Daniel Bryan - Please. Not even ten levels below Bryan in talent. Brock Lesnar - No. So, maybe two guys that Billy was better than. Let's look at the World Title, which is the belt I could have seen Billy getting pushed to. I'll just use the guys I haven't mentioned yet. Kurt Angle - Ha. Never. King Booker - No. The Unertaker - Do I even have to say it? The Great Khali - Yes. Billy was more over and better than him. Khali won because of his size only. Chris Jericho - Never. Jack Swagger - No, but Billy was more over. Kane - No. Dolph Ziggler - Nope. Christian - No, but Billy was arguably more over. Mark Henry - Yes, but Henry was awesome during the Hall of Pain run Big Show - Yes. So three or four. Not "Billy had more talent than so many World Champions of the past 10 years." Three or four. Maybe. |
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