My thought's on Billy Gunn.

The difference between those guys and Billy Gunn is that they all have a talent and a trait that you can point to and say "they are great at that" or "that makes him a star". Bulldog was incredibly over at times as a face (a singles face) and a big international draw, Owen was excellent in ring, Perfect was the complete package and Ken Shamrock was a legit badass who was incredibly over as a face at times.

What was Billy Gunn? Had a good look, was pretty athletic. That's about it. He had no defining qualities that would set him apart from anyone else. He was a great tag team wrestler and a decent midcarder. No one bought tickets to see Billy Gunn as a singles wrestler.

Of course you'll completely ignore that Billy had world title matches in his time (where the crowd was 100% behind him to win). Just like the other wrestlers that generally fall under the "should have had the title" bracket with a group of fans, ie: Owen, Bulldog, Piper etc. But nah, we'll ignore that and just put it down to me using some kind of voodoo on everyone to manipulate them. That makes a lot more sense.

Ziggler may be having MOTY candidates (debatable), but jesus christ, who is his competition? Bryan has been out for most of the year, Punk is gone, and Cena has been feuding with dead weight like Wyatt, or people who he doesn't click with at all like Rollins. The product is at an all time low right now. So basically it's boiled down to: when you take everyone else out of the equation, Dolph is having the best matches. Hardly an impressive feat at all.

We've already established in this thread, that Billy's problem came from the stacked roster. With The Rock, Foley, Austin, Triple H, Big Show, Kane, Undertaker etc, the main event scene was already stacked. Guys like Shamrock (who on his worst day was better than 99.99% of the current roster), X-Pac, Taka, Test, Owen Hart, Jarrett etc were mid carders.

TBH the only standout matches from Dolph for me were vs. Sheamus and vs. Punk both in 2012. And with his opponents being who they were in those matches, it's certainly not hard to see why. Sheamus was a star in 2012, having standout matches with Big Show, and ADR, two of the most consistently terrible wrestlers of all time, and Punk is Punk, he's one of those guys who could wrestle a mannequin and put on a great match. Put Dolph in the AE, and it's pretty much a guarantee that he'd be curtain jerking with D-Lo, if that. Dolph seems a lot better than he really is because the measuring stick for talent is a lot lower now than it was 10+ years ago.

That last comment is just ignorance in its most blatant form.

How is it ignorance in its most blatant form? Because you don't agree with it? Seeing as how nobody can list a Billy Gunn singles match that was really good or memorable. He got a chance to work with some good people.

Also, it's ignorance in its most blatant form that because you've only considered two Dolph matches standout, he's not better than Billy. Billy has had none. Dolph has, by most people opinion's, a bunch of good matches and it's not because "the measuring stick for talent is lower." Dolph can work with anyone. Also, ADR, while painfully dull, was one of the most consistently good wrestlers in recent memory. Daniel Bryan, Seth Rollins, John Cena, Sheamus, CM Punk, Edge, Undertaker, etc. All guys that have been around with Dolph while he has had damn great matches, but you seem to blindly ignore that when you talk about the "measuring stick for talent is lower."

There is no singles Billy Gunn match that holds a candle to any of Dolph's 10-20 best matches. Also, if you want to call ADR a consistently bad wrestler and praise Sheamus for his work with him, don't overlook Dolph's match with ADR at Payback 2013. Outstanding and the best double turn in a match that wasn't Bret/Austin at WrestleMania 13. Dolph can flat out go, better than Billy ever could. And of course, my comments will be swept under the rug as "ignorant" or "bitter." Neither of us is going to change our stance on this. You're a huge Billy Gunn fan, so you're blinded by that and maybe I'm blinded by being a Dolph fan. And yes, I know you also like Dolph. Regardless, we can keep doing this for 15 more pages but it's not going to get us anywhere. I say Dolph is miles better, you say Billy is way better. It is what it is.

Absolutely, he won the King of the Ring. Usually King of the Ring winners were being groomed for better things. For some reason though wwe never gave him that main event push.

Gunn certainly had what it took to get over with the fans. He got over as a "Smoking Gun", he got over as a New Age Outlaw, he got over as Mr. Ass, and he got over as Billy of Billy and Chuck fame.

I do agree that workrate is much more highly regarded nowadays. We were all just fans enjoying a good time back then. It doesn't change that he's never really had a good singles match, but I see where you're coming from. I really want to get off of this subject though so I probably won't respond much in here anymore.

I've seen ALL of Billy Gunn's work. From Smoking Guns right up to 2014 NAO. His stuff with Ken Shamrock, X-Pac Jarrett and Hunter weren't great. The stuff with Eddie was solid as was the Benoit stuff (particularly their Armageddon match where Benoit beat the hell out of Billy to take the belt from him.), but that could be attributed to him working with FAR superior guys like Eddie and Benoit. Hell, Noble, X-Pac and Hunter were better too.

Your post about Dolph not being able to pull out great performances with lesser workers suggests that you haven't seen his work. Youtube "Dolph Ziggler vs." for starters. He's had just as good, if not a better match with someone you consider terrible, Alberto Del Rio, than Sheamus did. I'm done here though. I think that Billy Gunn was not a main event talent, you clearly do. Agree to disagree, because if not, this is going to go in circles. What you consider good and what I consider good is vastly different.

lol...I never thought Billy Gunn would make a 4 page thread on the forum.

Whoa! Varying opinions? No way!!!!