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Post by TheLastDude on May 23, 2020 14:27:07 GMT -5
Appreciate it, but I’ll bite my tongue on this one. Don’t wanna risk this thread being locked/deleted. Haha As simple as it was, it took me twenty minutes to hit "create post".
Yeah, but to be fair, you type with two fingers, so it always takes you twenty minutes to make a post.  |
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Post by MKSavage on May 23, 2020 14:51:10 GMT -5
I liked Bret Hart as much as anyone. He was one of my top five favourite WWF superstars in the New Generation era. But I still think Owen was better than Bret. Bret had amazing matches, yes. But so did Owen. Owen could do high flying, he could do technical, he could brawl, he had a better interview, he had more charisma. Bret was just seen as cool because he was around in the 80s in an era where wrestlers didn't look like him or wrestle like him. Once you get into the mid 90s you see that Bret was just as good as everyone else during that time. Guys like HBK surpassed Bret. HBK had a more entertaining match with Owen Hart at the February 96 In Your House than he did with Bret at Wrestlemania XII. I don't wanna get into the whole Bret vs Shawn thing, but Shawn vs Owen at In Your house absolutely pales in comparison to Bret vs Owen from Mania 10 or SS94. Bret had better matches with Diesel, Taker, Vader, Austin, Razor, Mr Perfect, Bigelow, Kid, Bulldog than Shawn or Owen ever had. Bret was pulling classics out of Hakushi and Jean-Pierre and giving the majority of his opponents the best matches of their careers, even as far back as tags. Shawn and Owen are some of the all time greatest workers but we shouldn't be pretending anyone was on Bret's level during the 90s or really during any other time. I agree with most of this. However, I do think that Shawn had better matches with Taker than Bret, both were good, but I give the edge to Shawn with Taker. And with Razor as well. Kind of a toss up with me as to who had the better matches with Bulldog, I liked both of their set of matches with Bulldog, I'll call it a tie. But I do agree that Bret had the better matches with the others, especially Austin, Perfect and Owen. |
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Post by marino13 on May 23, 2020 16:36:54 GMT -5
As simple as it was, it took me twenty minutes to hit "create post".
Yeah, but to be fair, you type with two fingers, so it always takes you twenty minutes to make a post. You're not that wrong. I'm only two stages away from being a caveman. It'd be one stage is I could grow facial hair. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 17:35:17 GMT -5
Also, if anything, Dark Side of the Ring did Vince McMahon a favor by not including the longer clip of the press conference: How did they do him a favor? Other than the woman claiming that it was anything more than an accident was looking for tabloid material. Vince told her it was an accident, which it clearly was. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional and should be surrounded by padded walls. Vince then tells her the same thing he tells the next guy. As far as his knowledge, everything was good to go. |
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Warriah'
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Post by Warriah' on May 23, 2020 17:57:19 GMT -5
I don't wanna get into the whole Bret vs Shawn thing, but Shawn vs Owen at In Your house absolutely pales in comparison to Bret vs Owen from Mania 10 or SS94. Bret had better matches with Diesel, Taker, Vader, Austin, Razor, Mr Perfect, Bigelow, Kid, Bulldog than Shawn or Owen ever had. Bret was pulling classics out of Hakushi and Jean-Pierre and giving the majority of his opponents the best matches of their careers, even as far back as tags. Shawn and Owen are some of the all time greatest workers but we shouldn't be pretending anyone was on Bret's level during the 90s or really during any other time. I agree with most of this. However, I do think that Shawn had better matches with Taker than Bret, both were good, but I give the edge to Shawn with Taker. And with Razor as well. Kind of a toss up with me as to who had the better matches with Bulldog, I liked both of their set of matches with Bulldog, I'll call it a tie. But I do agree that Bret had the better matches with the others, especially Austin, Perfect and Owen. I can see the case with Taker, and Razor (though I think Taker/Bret from SS97 just edges out my the better Shawn/Taker matches). Shawn had such good matches with them, but definitely less so Bulldog. Bret's matches with Davey at SS92 and IYH are among Bret's very best. Owen's European match with Davey was better than the Shawn ones IMO. |
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wheeljack83
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Joined on: Feb 16, 2018 23:52:48 GMT -5
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Post by wheeljack83 on May 23, 2020 19:03:11 GMT -5
Also, if anything, Dark Side of the Ring did Vince McMahon a favor by not including the longer clip of the press conference: How did they do him a favor? Other than the woman claiming that it was anything more than an accident was looking for tabloid material. Vince told her it was an accident, which it clearly was. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional and should be surrounded by padded walls. Vince then tells her the same thing he tells the next guy. As far as his knowledge, everything was good to go. "I'm not an expert on rigging. I guess you are." "I resent your tone, lady." "Don't try and put yourself in the spotlight here." |
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Post by JokerFC on May 24, 2020 13:19:26 GMT -5
The stunt was rehearsed twice. McMahon isn't at fault here....it was a freak accident. I mean the company was the best in the business by all accounts?
The only debate is whether the show should have continued or not. I'm in the "no it f*ckin shouldn't" camp on that one.
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Post by PJ on May 24, 2020 13:31:35 GMT -5
The stunt was rehearsed twice. McMahon isn't at fault here....it was a freak accident. I mean the company was the best in the business by all accounts?The only debate is whether the show should have continued or not. I'm in the "no it f*ckin shouldn't" camp on that one. I thought they said in the episode that the WWE didn’t use the company that was considered the best in the business. |
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Post by JokerFC on May 24, 2020 13:38:57 GMT -5
The stunt was rehearsed twice. McMahon isn't at fault here....it was a freak accident. I mean the company was the best in the business by all accounts?The only debate is whether the show should have continued or not. I'm in the "no it f*ckin shouldn't" camp on that one. I thought they said in the episode that the WWE didn’t use the company that was considered the best in the business. I thought Martha said they did? This crew worked for Disney, Universal & allsorts? |
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Post by PJ on May 24, 2020 13:44:52 GMT -5
I thought they said in the episode that the WWE didn’t use the company that was considered the best in the business. I thought Martha said they did? This crew worked for Disney, Universal & allsorts? Unless I misunderstood her I thought she said that was who they told her it was going to be, but she said they used someone else. |
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Post by JokerFC on May 24, 2020 13:48:18 GMT -5
I thought Martha said they did? This crew worked for Disney, Universal & allsorts? Unless I misunderstood her I thought she said that was who they told her it was going to be, but she said they used someone else. Hmm.. Your probably right man...maybe I misunderstood. |
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wheeljack83
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Joined on: Feb 16, 2018 23:52:48 GMT -5
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Post by wheeljack83 on May 25, 2020 1:29:52 GMT -5
The stunt was rehearsed twice. McMahon isn't at fault here....it was a freak accident. I mean the company was the best in the business by all accounts? The only debate is whether the show should have continued or not. I'm in the "no it f*ckin shouldn't" camp on that one. It wasn't a freak accident. The clip used in the stunt was designed to use for quick launch of sails on sail boats that releases on six pounds of pressure. WWE was warned that the way they wanted to pull off the stunt was not safe by Joe Branam. The stunt rigger who designed the stunt was oversold as the person who designed Sting's cable stunts. He wasn't. He helped with them, but he didn't design them. |
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Post by JokerFC on May 25, 2020 2:54:50 GMT -5
The stunt was rehearsed twice. McMahon isn't at fault here....it was a freak accident. I mean the company was the best in the business by all accounts? The only debate is whether the show should have continued or not. I'm in the "no it f*ckin shouldn't" camp on that one. It wasn't a freak accident. The clip used in the stunt was designed to use for quick launch of sails on sail boats that releases on six pounds of pressure. WWE was warned that the way they wanted to pull off the stunt was not safe by Robert Branam. The stunt rigger who designed the stunt was oversold as the person who designed Sting's cable stunts. He wasn't. He helped with them, but he didn't design them. How come it was ok in rehearsal then? |
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on May 25, 2020 3:45:39 GMT -5
It wasn't a freak accident. The clip used in the stunt was designed to use for quick launch of sails on sail boats that releases on six pounds of pressure. WWE was warned that the way they wanted to pull off the stunt was not safe by Robert Branam. The stunt rigger who designed the stunt was oversold as the person who designed Sting's cable stunts. He wasn't. He helped with them, but he didn't design them. How come it was ok in rehearsal then? I don't think that they rehearsed with the new clip because Owen didn't want to. The rehearsals were with the older clip. |
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Post by JokerFC on May 25, 2020 3:49:35 GMT -5
How come it was ok in rehearsal then? I don't think that they rehearsed with the new clip because Owen didn't want to. The rehearsals were with the older clip. Ah I see. Jesus... frighteningly careless stuff. I'll have to rewatch this episode after work I think. |
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on May 25, 2020 4:17:39 GMT -5
I don't think that they rehearsed with the new clip because Owen didn't want to. The rehearsals were with the older clip. Ah I see. Jesus... frighteningly careless stuff. I'll have to rewatch this episode after work I think. I may be misremembering about the rehearsal using the older clip. I know they said Owen refused to do the rehearsal because they had done the stunt before. A few things that the documentary left out: Vince and Kevin Dunn fired the original guy that had worked with them before on the stunt. According to Martha, they thought that it took Owen too long to get the harness off in the ring and they thought it looked dumb. That's why they switched to the newer clip. The professional they hired told them it was too dangerous to do it the way they wanted and that someone would get seriously hurt. Vince and Kevin Dunn told him his services were no longer needed because they couldnt pay him the $5,000 he asked for. They hired someone that claimed he was the lead designer of the stunt that did Sting's entrance for WCW. He wasnt the lead designer, he just worked on the stunt. After hearing this, the original guy came back and said he would do the stunt for free as long as they did it the right way. The WWF declined his offer. That's what lead to the accident. |
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Post by JokerFC on May 25, 2020 4:23:32 GMT -5
Ah I see. Jesus... frighteningly careless stuff. I'll have to rewatch this episode after work I think. I may be misremembering about the rehearsal using the older clip. I know they said Owen refused to do the rehearsal because they had done the stunt before. A few things that the documentary left out: Vince and Kevin Dunn fired the original guy that had worked with them before on the stunt. According to Martha, they thought that it took Owen too long to get the harness off in the ring and they thought it looked dumb. That's why they switched to the newer clip. The professional they hired told them it was too dangerous to do it the way they wanted and that someone would get seriously hurt. Vince and Kevin Dunn told him his services were no longer needed because they couldnt pay him the $5,000 he asked for. They hired someone that claimed he was the lead designer of the stunt that did Sting's entrance for WCW. He wasnt the lead designer, he just worked on the stunt. After hearing this, the original guy came back and said he would do the stunt for free as long as they did it the right way. The WWF declined his offer. That's what lead to the accident. Christ....f*ckin shocking |
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Post by Nivro™ on May 25, 2020 12:24:36 GMT -5
My only problem with the show, is that more often than not they're only telling one side of the story. Like I said earlier, they could have done so much more with the Owen episode. Why not interview Bret? Why not the police? Why not the guy who was responsible for the stunt? Rather than just saying Vince is the devil each week, give fans multiple perspectives and let them judge for themselves. For example I saw someone on Reddit had posted comments made the guy (forgot his name) in charge of the stunt. The one Martha named in the episode. He said that the clip they used was supposed to hold 3600 pounds. But the manufacturer had problems with their orders, but didn't bother to issue a warning. He also said people under oath were lying about seeing him cutting the cord and supposedly talking to McMahon about "ending the Harts". I would have liked that to be included. Give him a chance to defend himself at least. Why not interview the KC police about their findings? Ask them if carrying on the show hindered their investigation. See what conclusion they came up with. And I get it, shows like this have a narrative in mind beforehand. And that if they hear something that doesn't fit that narrative, it probably doesn't make the episode. But personally I would like to have seen more done.
Chances are they had to be heavily biased to get Martha involved so bringing in Bret or other family members or diving too deep into the lawsuit/investigation likely wasnt an option. Like I said, before..anything involving Martha is just going to be a bury WWE/Vince documentary. |
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wheeljack83
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 16, 2018 23:52:48 GMT -5
Posts: 1,353
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Post by wheeljack83 on May 25, 2020 14:29:13 GMT -5
My only problem with the show, is that more often than not they're only telling one side of the story. Like I said earlier, they could have done so much more with the Owen episode. Why not interview Bret? Why not the police? Why not the guy who was responsible for the stunt? Rather than just saying Vince is the devil each week, give fans multiple perspectives and let them judge for themselves. For example I saw someone on Reddit had posted comments made the guy (forgot his name) in charge of the stunt. The one Martha named in the episode. He said that the clip they used was supposed to hold 3600 pounds. But the manufacturer had problems with their orders, but didn't bother to issue a warning. He also said people under oath were lying about seeing him cutting the cord and supposedly talking to McMahon about "ending the Harts". I would have liked that to be included. Give him a chance to defend himself at least. Why not interview the KC police about their findings? Ask them if carrying on the show hindered their investigation. See what conclusion they came up with. And I get it, shows like this have a narrative in mind beforehand. And that if they hear something that doesn't fit that narrative, it probably doesn't make the episode. But personally I would like to have seen more done.
Chances are they had to be heavily biased to get Martha involved so bringing in Bret or other family members or diving too deep into the lawsuit/investigation likely wasnt an option. Like I said, before..anything involving Martha is just going to be a bury WWE/Vince documentary. It's not a great defense of Vince McMahon and WWE. |
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Post by Patrick Bateman (original) on May 25, 2020 18:59:37 GMT -5
Ah I see. Jesus... frighteningly careless stuff. I'll have to rewatch this episode after work I think. I may be misremembering about the rehearsal using the older clip. I know they said Owen refused to do the rehearsal because they had done the stunt before. A few things that the documentary left out: Vince and Kevin Dunn fired the original guy that had worked with them before on the stunt. According to Martha, they thought that it took Owen too long to get the harness off in the ring and they thought it looked dumb. That's why they switched to the newer clip. The professional they hired told them it was too dangerous to do it the way they wanted and that someone would get seriously hurt. Vince and Kevin Dunn told him his services were no longer needed because they couldnt pay him the $5,000 he asked for. They hired someone that claimed he was the lead designer of the stunt that did Sting's entrance for WCW. He wasnt the lead designer, he just worked on the stunt. After hearing this, the original guy came back and said he would do the stunt for free as long as they did it the right way. The WWF declined his offer. That's what lead to the accident. Not free. 3,000. Because he knew it was going to go bad. Because Vince kept wanting the quick release mechanism. And everytime he said NO it was too dangerous. WWE reached out to him and he had his person say 5k. WWE said no. Then went to Florida. And he said that place was bottom of the barrel. So had his assistant call back and offer to do it for 3,000. He was informed the stunt was canceled (RAW). 6 days later they decided to go with the seedy place that would use a quick release mechanism. Owen deliberately showed up late so he wouldn't have to practice the stunt. Because they weren't able to practice, they modified it. Because originally Max Mini was supposed to be dressed as the Blazer strapped to Owen's chest. In court it was shown the Cape itself created enough pressure (6lbs) to trip the quick release mechanism. |
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