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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 22:01:18 GMT -5
Oh my bad, forgot I couldnt be a fan of someone without thinking the were the best. Seriously because Im an Orton fan I dont believe he is better. Flair is the best of all time. You made a mistake and owned up to it. I'm proud of you. Wait............................what was my mistake. Either way yay for people on this board agreeing
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Post by joebaia88 on Mar 5, 2008 22:27:32 GMT -5
I fully understand where your coming from with regards to his in ring work NOW. His execution obviously isn't what it was and he can't wrestle the half hour or hour long matches that he could do in his prime. But for all he's done for the business, Flair should be able to go out how he wants. Even at 58, the crowds still love him, even though they know he's limited in what he can do. He loves the wrestling business and I think with Flair it's more of a case that he loves the business too much to want to stop performing. He's not trying to hold people down or use his reputation to stay on top. That's why I think it's acceptable for Flair to still be wrestling to this day. The people I'm getting at are those who flat out don't respect Flair or the work he's done in the business. Narrow minded idiots who think that guys like AJ Styles and Shelton Benjamin are the future of wrestling and should be holding world titles are the people who really need a history lesson in wrestling and should be made to learn what constitutes an actual great wrestler. I'm glad to see that you own the Ric Flair DVD and obviously respect the great man. Or because he never saved a dime in his life, Even so, it's plain to see Flair adores wrestling. He could retire and the 'E' would definately have a well paying road agent job or something similar waiting for him. So I really doubt he's staying in it purely for the money. Remember, he handed in his notice last year because of creative differences regarding this win or retire angle. And, I may as well also point this out, given the right opponent, Flair can still go. Since his return in 2002, look at some of the matches he's been involved in; vs Vince at the Rumble '02. Really fun brawl, not 5 stars or anything but still fun. vs Taker at 'Mania 18. Fantastic match that, had it not been for Rock/Hogan on the same card, would have stole the show. vs HHH, Raw 03. Again, not a classic, but an emotional, enthralling match. vs HHH at Taboo Tuesday (cage match) and Survivor Series 2005 (Last Man Standing). Both great matches. Tons of hate and emotion and blood in both matches. The cage match especially, was possibly the best cage match I've seen in a good few years. vs Foley, Summerslam '06, 'I quit' match. This whole feud was brilliantly done. Their 2/3 falls match at Vengeance sucked, but this match was downright brutal and personal. The best match on the Summerslam card and one of my picks for Match of The Year for the WWE in '06. Then I also enjoyed his matches with Orton and HHH in recent months. Both very emotional and well played on the part of Flair. At 58, with the amount of punishment his body has been through, he has no right to even have an ok match, but he's put on some great stuff in the past few years.
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Post by Adam on Mar 5, 2008 22:30:10 GMT -5
The people I'm getting at are those who flat out don't respect Flair or the work he's done in the business. Narrow minded idiots who think that guys like AJ Styles and Shelton Benjamin are the future of wrestling and should be holding world titles are the people who really need a history lesson in wrestling and should be made to learn what constitutes an actual great wrestler. I'm glad to see that you own the Ric Flair DVD and obviously respect the great man. AJ is a good wrestler :-\
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 22:31:30 GMT -5
The people I'm getting at are those who flat out don't respect Flair or the work he's done in the business. Narrow minded idiots who think that guys like AJ Styles and Shelton Benjamin are the future of wrestling and should be holding world titles are the people who really need a history lesson in wrestling and should be made to learn what constitutes an actual great wrestler. I'm glad to see that you own the Ric Flair DVD and obviously respect the great man. AJ is a good wrestler :-\ Shelton too
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Post by joebaia88 on Mar 5, 2008 22:37:53 GMT -5
I'm not getting into why I think AJ Styles and Shelton aren't as great as so many Internet fans think they are, but to keep it short, jumping around a lot and doing fancy move after fancy move does not make you a good wrestler.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 22:55:41 GMT -5
Shelton could still wrestle without doing spots as he has a great amatuer background. AJ I really have no clue. I enjoy a few of his matches.
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Post by Iron Man on Mar 5, 2008 23:34:45 GMT -5
Or because he never saved a dime in his life, Even so, it's plain to see Flair adores wrestling. He could retire and the 'E' would definately have a well paying road agent job or something similar waiting for him. So I really doubt he's staying in it purely for the money. Remember, he handed in his notice last year because of creative differences regarding this win or retire angle. And, I may as well also point this out, given the right opponent, Flair can still go. Since his return in 2002, look at some of the matches he's been involved in; vs Vince at the Rumble '02. Really fun brawl, not 5 stars or anything but still fun. vs Taker at 'Mania 18. Fantastic match that, had it not been for Rock/Hogan on the same card, would have stole the show. vs HHH, Raw 03. Again, not a classic, but an emotional, enthralling match. vs HHH at Taboo Tuesday (cage match) and Survivor Series 2005 (Last Man Standing). Both great matches. Tons of hate and emotion and blood in both matches. The cage match especially, was possibly the best cage match I've seen in a good few years. vs Foley, Summerslam '06, 'I quit' match. This whole feud was brilliantly done. Their 2/3 falls match at Vengeance sucked, but this match was downright brutal and personal. The best match on the Summerslam card and one of my picks for Match of The Year for the WWE in '06. Then I also enjoyed his matches with Orton and HHH in recent months. Both very emotional and well played on the part of Flair. At 58, with the amount of punishment his body has been through, he has no right to even have an ok match, but he's put on some great stuff in the past few years. No doubt, I never said he hasn't had good matches. I loved his match with Taker at Mania, tbh. I just don't get why everyone loves him, but then again I grew into wrestling in the mid 90's, and into WWF
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Post by joebaia88 on Mar 5, 2008 23:45:54 GMT -5
Shelton could still wrestle without doing spots as he has a great amatuer background. AJ I really have no clue. I enjoy a few of his matches. An amateur background is not necessarily something that translates into success when it comes to professional wrestling though. Ok, obviously Angle and Lesnar came from amateur backgrounds and their success is there for all to see, but chain wrestling on the mat, counter after counter will only get you so far, it needs to be intergrated with other aspects of professional wrestling, otherwise, it's just amateur wrestling. I'm not saying amateur wrestling isn't entertaining, but for a professional wrestling fan, it's not what the large majority of fans want to see. If they wanted amateur wrestling, they would watch the NCAA's or whatever it is. Shelton has all this athleticism and ability to pull off these cool looking moves, but it's as if he doesn't know why he's doing it. He's just doing them because he can. His psychology and pacing is all over the place. I'm not saying every one of his matches should be a meticulously planned epic, but if they're simply him jumping from spot to spot for 10 minutes no matter what the context of the match is, then the moves lose all effect. Look at guys like Rey, Eddie, Dean Malenko and Benoit. All terrific talents who could reel off a million different moves if they wanted to. But they don't. They know not to shoot their load right off the bat unlike Shelton. They know when a high spot is needed and when it's unneccessary, unlike Shelton and they know how to use their moves to tell a story, unlike Shelton. Shelton's not the only guy by any means who is like this, but he's one of the IWC's pin ups who is treated like a much bigger deal than he really is.
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Post by Controversial Maverick PUNK on Mar 6, 2008 0:31:15 GMT -5
Shelton could still wrestle without doing spots as he has a great amatuer background. AJ I really have no clue. I enjoy a few of his matches. An amateur background is not necessarily something that translates into success when it comes to professional wrestling though. Ok, obviously Angle and Lesnar came from amateur backgrounds and their success is there for all to see, but chain wrestling on the mat, counter after counter will only get you so far, it needs to be intergrated with other aspects of professional wrestling, otherwise, it's just amateur wrestling. I'm not saying amateur wrestling isn't entertaining, but for a professional wrestling fan, it's not what the large majority of fans want to see. If they wanted amateur wrestling, they would watch the NCAA's or whatever it is. Shelton has all this athleticism and ability to pull off these cool looking moves, but it's as if he doesn't know why he's doing it. He's just doing them because he can. His psychology and pacing is all over the place. I'm not saying every one of his matches should be a meticulously planned epic, but if they're simply him jumping from spot to spot for 10 minutes no matter what the context of the match is, then the moves lose all effect. Look at guys like Rey, Eddie, Dean Malenko and Benoit. All terrific talents who could reel off a million different moves if they wanted to. But they don't. They know not to shoot their load right off the bat unlike Shelton. They know when a high spot is needed and when it's unneccessary, unlike Shelton and they know how to use their moves to tell a story, unlike Shelton. Shelton's not the only guy by any means who is like this, but he's one of the IWC's pin ups who is treated like a much bigger deal than he really is. If Shelton was as great as everybody makes him out to be, he wouldn't have been relegated from the A show, to the third - and least important, brand..
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Post by Mark on Mar 6, 2008 0:34:48 GMT -5
if shelton could cut good promos, He'd be in a higher position than he is right now
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Post by chumped on Mar 6, 2008 0:35:16 GMT -5
I'm not getting into why I think AJ Styles and Shelton aren't as great as so many Internet fans think they are, but to keep it short, jumping around a lot and doing fancy move after fancy move does not make you a good wrestler. Internet fans? Funny. I always see the whole crowd cheer AJ wherever he goes.
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Post by carly1988 on Mar 6, 2008 3:57:38 GMT -5
Last time i checked though 98.7% of the people on this board (you know all those ones that jumped on board during the attitude era then watched a few youtube videos and think they know all about wrestling) think that wrestling in 2008 sucks or is stale. Where as the other 1.3% (the guys that would willingly sit down and watch a Frank Gotch vs George Hackenschmidt 3 hour borefest for wrestling entertainment purposes only) know, respect and worship Ric Flair for being the greatest in ring performer, promo giving, jet flying, limo riding, kiss stealing, wheelin dealin 16 times Champion of the world. Maybe I'm just tired, but you lost me. The point is that too many kiddies now days want to see their "superstars" go through flaming tables, get hit with barbwire bats, take 30ft leaps off towers, wrap themselves in glue and broken glass and beat the hell outta each other AND THEN get pissed when McMahon calls it "Entertainment". Thats not what the "sport" of professional wrestling is suppose to be. People like Jim Crockett, Sam Munchnick, Vince McMahon Sr, Toots Mondt would be rolling over in their grave. The "sport" of professional wrestling died in the mid 90s. Flair is the last true "wrestler" still around. Everyone else in the business is a "superstar" or an "entertainer" On WWE 24/7 they showed a Rhodes/Blanchard match. The Horsemen came out to break Babydolls leg. The entire places exploded when magnum TA and RnR Express came out. The fans were so passionate about that. Nothing WWE could do can get that kind of response. They proved that when all 6 people cheered at Jerichos return. HBK called himself "the show stopper" because thats what it was to him, a show. To guys like Flair, Rhodes, Blanchard and Magnum....It was more then just a show, it was life.
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Post by joebaia88 on Mar 6, 2008 5:14:40 GMT -5
I'm not getting into why I think AJ Styles and Shelton aren't as great as so many Internet fans think they are, but to keep it short, jumping around a lot and doing fancy move after fancy move does not make you a good wrestler. Internet fans? Funny. I always see the whole crowd cheer AJ wherever he goes. Take AJ out of the minor leagues and put him into some WWE shows and we'd see how truly over he is. There's a difference between popping the Impact Zone or wherever and getting over with the much bigger WWE crowds. AJ would soon be found at at that level using the same style he does in TNA.
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Post by rkolegendkilla on Mar 6, 2008 5:19:51 GMT -5
if shelton could cut good promos, He'd be in a higher position than he is right now Totally. When I see people complaining and saying that Shelton should be main eventing, I just have to remind them that you have to be an entertainer on the mic.
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Post by carly1988 on Mar 6, 2008 5:25:49 GMT -5
Internet fans? Funny. I always see the whole crowd cheer AJ wherever he goes. Take AJ out of the minor leagues and put him into some WWE shows and we'd see how truly over he is. There's a difference between popping the Impact Zone or wherever and getting over with the much bigger WWE crowds. AJ would soon be found at at that level using the same style he does in TNA. AJ honestly isnt that bad in my opinion and is one of few reasons I watch TNA. I think TNA is starting to kill him though with this lil cry baby gimmick thing they had going where he was just a lacky for Christian. The problem with AJ going to WWE is that McMahon would do something stupid with him like put him in a mask and call him El Generico Americano....If its not Vinces creation he kills it the moment it walks t hrough the door
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Post by joebaia88 on Mar 6, 2008 6:17:19 GMT -5
Take AJ out of the minor leagues and put him into some WWE shows and we'd see how truly over he is. There's a difference between popping the Impact Zone or wherever and getting over with the much bigger WWE crowds. AJ would soon be found at at that level using the same style he does in TNA. AJ honestly isnt that bad in my opinion and is one of few reasons I watch TNA. I think TNA is starting to kill him though with this lil cry baby gimmick thing they had going where he was just a lacky for Christian. The problem with AJ going to WWE is that McMahon would do something stupid with him like put him in a mask and call him El Generico Americano....If its not Vinces creation he kills it the moment it walks t hrough the door That's really not true. There's a long list of talent that Vince has brought in from other promotions that have been pushed in the WWE and have had long and successful careers there. Eddie, Benoit, Mysterio and Jericho all immediately spring to mind. All held world titles, all of them have or had good spots on the card usually and were never depushed to look stupid or foolish. Granted Jericho and Mysterio's title reigns weren't well booked, but they still put the strap on both guys and their both still way over with the crowds. Goldberg as well, for the year he was with the E was pushed very heavily. He went over Rock, HHH (twice) and Lesnar and held the World Title in the process. Hell, how about Foley and Austin? Both guys worked for WCW for a while before they worked for WWF/E. Ok, they didn't jump ship straight from WCW, but Vince didn't bury them did he? If anything he made them 2 of the biggest stars of the attitude era and in the history of wrestling. I think it's a common misconception that Vince buries any talent that he didn't create. His track record is pretty impressive to say the least.
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Post by carly1988 on Mar 6, 2008 7:32:58 GMT -5
AJ honestly isnt that bad in my opinion and is one of few reasons I watch TNA. I think TNA is starting to kill him though with this lil cry baby gimmick thing they had going where he was just a lacky for Christian. The problem with AJ going to WWE is that McMahon would do something stupid with him like put him in a mask and call him El Generico Americano....If its not Vinces creation he kills it the moment it walks t hrough the door That's really not true. There's a long list of talent that Vince has brought in from other promotions that have been pushed in the WWE and have had long and successful careers there. Eddie, Benoit, Mysterio and Jericho all immediately spring to mind. All held world titles, all of them have or had good spots on the card usually and were never depushed to look stupid or foolish. Granted Jericho and Mysterio's title reigns weren't well booked, but they still put the strap on both guys and their both still way over with the crowds. Goldberg as well, for the year he was with the E was pushed very heavily. He went over Rock, HHH (twice) and Lesnar and held the World Title in the process. Hell, how about Foley and Austin? Both guys worked for WCW for a while before they worked for WWF/E. Ok, they didn't jump ship straight from WCW, but Vince didn't bury them did he? If anything he made them 2 of the biggest stars of the attitude era and in the history of wrestling. I think it's a common misconception that Vince buries any talent that he didn't create. His track record is pretty impressive to say the least. but guys like Foley, Austin he had to repackage them in his own way before giving them their push. Foley could have been over as Cactus Jack but McMahon felt the need for Mankind and honestly the 'demented" Mankind was a crap gimmick as well as the ringmaster Steve Austin. If it wasnt for Corporate Mankind and Stoncold (both of which were pretty much created by fans) both guys careers would have not went anywhere. I honestly dont think that Benoit having a 4month title reign and then being stuck in mid to lower mid card level feuds getting over. The only reason Mysterio got anywhere near the title was because of Eddie dying. If Eddie was alive Rey would still be a CW champion. Jericho grabbed the titles at Vengence but what has he done since he lost those belts??? Hes stuck right back in midcard level talent. Goldberg was surprisingly over. Hes pretty much the only one ill give any credit to of former major rival company stars that Vince puts over.
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Post by carly1988 on Mar 6, 2008 7:37:03 GMT -5
hate double posting but there are many stars that jumped to the WWF that Vince could have put the ball in their hands and could have made something out of them. Ron Simmons could have been something instead of being a space Muslim Farooq Asad. Dont forget about pretty much trashing the careers of Lex Luger, Dusty Rhodes or Perry Saturn
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Post by Mark on Mar 6, 2008 8:09:43 GMT -5
how was the demented mankind gimmick crap.
foley played that character to a tee
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Post by rkolegendkilla on Mar 6, 2008 15:01:08 GMT -5
You do take your wrestling extremely seriously don't you G-Money?
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