TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 4, 2020 19:39:09 GMT -5
He didn't come back to properly wrestle until like June 1997, so him forfeiting the title in February that year was actually a long time not wrestling. Yeah, but I think he returned earlier than that and did commentary. It was at one of those Raw's when he must have done the back flip off the top turnbuckle to make Bret think he was faking the whole time. I think Bret's complaint about it was that Shawn made it seem like his knee/leg was so bad that he was going to be gone for a long time, maybe a year, and that he was going to need surgery. So when Shawn came back a short time later and did the back flip, Bret thought that Shawn was clearly faking the injury. I believe Bret also said, that if his leg wasn't bad enough to need surgery, then he could have taken a month or so off and still been able to have their match at WM13, then taken some more time off. Oh I get you now, think I heard that before. Definitely feels like something he would do
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 4, 2020 8:54:22 GMT -5
Stories I have heard about Shawn when it comes to losing a title to a fake injury are as follows.... Shane Douglas talks about how the day he was supposed to be Shawn at In Your House for the IC Title, that Shawn was joking with him and looked fine. Shawn then tell Shane he has to go into make up so they part ways. Next time Shane sees Shawn is when he is coming out to give up the IC Title and he has all these bruises and such on his face that apparently to Shane Douglas were not there before. Now, I know Shane talks a lot, but I never have known Shane to bullcrap a story. I also heard that when Shawn returned to Raw in the summer 1998 he was doing back hand springs and such in the back. It was X-Pac who said that in a shoot. So Pac went up to Triple H I think it was and said, "wasn't his back so bad he couldn't do things like this anymore??" and whoever it was, like I said, I think it was Triple H, said, "ha ha ha yeah... riiiight" and walked off. So as much as I love Shawn Michaels and am a fan of his work from that era, I also know how big of a piece of crap he was. You forgot about the one of him giving up the WWF title in 1997 instead of losing it to Bret at WM13. I remember reading that Bret said that people actually thought that he really was injured but them he came back to Raw like a month later and did a back flip off the top turnbuckle. Bret said when he saw that he knew Shawn was faking it and just didn't want to drop the belt to him. I can't remember who said it, it may have been Jericho, but he said that Shawn has forfeited the titles more times than he actually lost them (by being beaten in the ring). He didn't come back to properly wrestle until like June 1997, so him forfeiting the title in February that year was actually a long time not wrestling.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 4, 2020 5:53:10 GMT -5
Definitely noticed kids at school stopped talking about wrestling 2001-2002, mostly after the Invasion.
And I realised that those casual fans don't care much about the in-ring action, they came for the characters and stories, not for the wrestling. That's for die-hard fans, and those tend to stick around or drop off slowly, like I did.
I don't have the patience to watch loooooong matches that have multiple false-finishes and finishers, and I dislike wish-fulfillment 160lbs guys trying to mix it with 220lbs "heavyweights". Wrestling's changed too much and I may be "stuck in the past", but that's my perogrative.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 4, 2020 5:05:58 GMT -5
I think Bret would have kept going on a part-time basis until 2003. And we would have got the Bret vs Vince feud but way better than 2010.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 29, 2020 19:27:50 GMT -5
Jericho was the first Undisputed champ...and he was cleaning up dogsh*t on TV while HHH & Steph had the sparring on the mic. Jericho was only there because HHH couldnt pin Steph for the title. If he had feuded with Austin or Rock going into WM? he wouldn't have been the side attraction in the role of Stephs butler...there had NEVER been a more one sided championship feud going into WM up to this & there's no defending it. HHH probably watched WCW in the late 90s and saw how popular Jericho was. Even in his early debut days Jericho was put over pretty well on WCW while Terra Ryzing in his WCW days was destined to be a guy who beats the Joey Maggs type of guys. Chris came in to WWF with a lot of fan fare and popularity even as a heel while Hunter struggled in his early WWF days on the level of fame and popularity with Sparky Plugg, Fatu, Duke Droese and Henry Godwinn. I'm sure he held a ton of bitterness towards anyone on the level of Chris back then. He is able to get the final victory over most guys from his era simply because of the power to bring them in for a Hall of Fame induction or a Raw reunion and see those guys kiss his butt on speeches and shoots but now Chris is helping a potential rival company build themselves as possible competition to WWE and that probably eats HHH up even more. I think you're looking into it too much. Triple H would not have cared about Jericho in WCW and would never have seen him as a threat, let alone that he would wind up in WWE later on. In fact, in those days he focused on himself and getting to the next level. When Jericho came into the WWE he thought negatively of Jericho firstly because he was a former WCW guy, cocky and brash. Jericho carried himself with that in the ring and Triple H probably mistakenly thought Jericho was like that outside of the ring. Especially since his first programs were with Road Dogg and X-Pac, both Trips' guys. If they took a disliking to someone, Triple H would take their side. He probably thought Jericho was in need of being humbled and it's an old school "you're in our house" mentality. He feuded with Chyna, who thought Jericho was unsafe in the ring because he wrestled her like one of the guys. Her being a woman, a 160lbs woman, but a woman still, as well as being more green to begin with, meant she was a bit less up for the punishment in a male-led match in her early days. As a result, she had a slight injury and Jericho apparently hit her too hard with connected punches, presumably getting wrapped up in the physical side of the match and treating her like on of the guys. And yet she wanted no special treatment, but cried foul when given just that. She complained to Hunter, who was gaining more and more pull from Vince, and Trips began his vendetta against Jericho, and claimed he had "nuclear heat" because of it. In spite of this, Jericho still remained popular and got more and more over. Probably infuriating HHH even more so. And like I said before, whilst Jericho feuded with Trips in 2000 and Steph in 2001, Jericho repeatedly owned them on the mic and got small victories over them. They likely both held grudges against him, and thought he shouldn't be anywhere near the main event. All together - this likely led to them burying him when Trips came back and ruining his run as first Undisputed Champion.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 23, 2020 16:38:20 GMT -5
It also did them no favors that Stevie Richards of all people was their manager. He killed it as RTC's mouthpiece though...
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 23, 2020 13:39:57 GMT -5
Today's TV contracts and international deals beg to differ. WWE are financially stable and sustained thanks to those, but in terms of revenue and popularity, mainstream appeal? No contest. 1998-2000 it was a cultural phenomenon. Whether or not they are making close to the same revenue today as back then, is discounting the fact that today they have better staffing and sponsorship and tv deals. Believe it or not. If the attitude era had what they have today with sponsorship, revenue streams, events..... They would be making more money because of the higher tv ratings and popularity they had back then, more ppv buys, more network subscriptions, more merch sales, more fan attendance....
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 23, 2020 13:33:12 GMT -5
Another board has a member posting Observer news from the mid 1990s WCW and in an 1997 issue it's noted that Goldberg beat Wrath in about 20 seconds. That seals his fate right there. He was never intended to be anything other than a gimmicked jobber, maybe one step above a Mike Enos or Barry Darsow. His fate in WWF was sealed early on too with PPV losses to Marty Jannetty and Earthquake along with a poor showing at the rumble. Back then the kliq didn't have the type of power as they did a year later I'm sure but Clarke blames it all on them. I'm all for someone being bitter if it's someone great that was truly held back but as Simon Cowell would tell American Idol poor performers "You're just not that good enough" and neither was Clarke. Amazing look! Just nothing else. That's not strictly true. Goldberg didn't meet Wrath until 1998, and it was actually streak vs streak, as Wrath had built up a few weeks of wins and the crowd were actually getting behind him. It may have been an accident that he caught on, but I'm sure they were trying to build him up a little. Feeding him to Goldberg cold, with no build and no reference to the potential streak vs streak concept and the fact he jobbed to him just like every other jabroni is what is unjustified. But to say they didn't view Wrath as an actual usable guy is a bit of a stretch. He was another guy on the roster for a few months in 1997, but definitely used better than those guys you mentioned. His winning streak in 1998 got him noticed so someone was behind him backstage.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 21, 2020 6:30:49 GMT -5
You bring up an interesting question, what if Austin won the 2002 Royal Rumble! Interesting question but nobody had a shot outside of HHH here. It was decided as far back as Oct 2000(amongst other things) that it would be the victory parade for the all conquering returning hero planned by Steph with her still new powers behind the scenes...except it wasn't as popular as folks thought. The vindictive burial of Jericho that followed didnt do H any favors either. Jericho was the first Undisputed champ ever & his booking against HHH was one of the worst abuses of backstage power ever committed to screen in Wrestling history...and my God that's saying something. Jericho was a spectator in the Championship feud and because of this? fans didnt give one chocolate f*ck about their match @ WM18 or the fact that HHH won...look at the crowd reaction....folks will cite Rock vs Hogan as the reason for this but if HHH was as universally adored as they make out in his face role? It wouldn't have mattered. Its also well known that many experienced folks felt Rock vs Hogan should go on last...but Steph convinced daddy otherwise. The entire thing backfired. After a 2 months HHHs time as Undisputed champ would be over and he was asking to go heel again. A role he EXCELLED in (few misteps aside)until he went face in 2006. I know this is kind of derailing into criticising HHH and Steph, but that is so sad. Literally as soon as Steph took over creative in October 2000, the whole show nosedived (maybe slowly at first) but you can look at ratings at the time and they clearly dropped significantly for the time period when she took over. Basically Triple H (and Steph's) jealousy for how over The Rock was and that Triple H wanted to be over like him, resulted in this behaviour. Luckily Vince loved The Rock and wouldn't let Trips and Steph bury him (presuming they really wanted to). Imagine how petty they were that they would have done that. Jericho's burial was out of resentment and petty jealousy going as far back as 1999 when Triple H despised Jericho for his attitude and unjustly gave Jericho his "nuclear heat", going as far as complaining outright with Chyna to Vince that Jericho was unsafe and in it for himself, citing that he gave Chyna a shiner and injured a woman. HHH was probably jealous shortly after that despite all this Jericho got over thanks to his charisma and hard work, and also since Vince thought it would humble HHH to work with Jericho for the title on/off from April-July 2000. Then couple that with Jericho always getting one over on Steph throughout 2001, despite Steph signing off on it at the time. We all know Steph holds grudges and ultimately doesn't allow talent to be above her and she gets the last laugh (still happening during the Authority era).... all this combined led to Triple H and Stephanie degrading Jericho by treating him as her servant, literally picking up dog turds, all whilst he was supposed to be the top heel in the company and frick'n UNDISPUTED CHAMPION. Regardless of whether Stephanie was also made out to be humiliated (I dispute that she wasn't really), she put herself above Jericho in the spotlight, just as she did in the Alliance angle, and Triple H had an ego the size of Jupiter. They are made for each other, no wonder they're still happily married... On topic: JokerFC what do you think the Invasion would have been like had Triple H took the role Kurt had?
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 21, 2020 3:39:39 GMT -5
WWE fans: we're sick of the performance centre and ready for a change. WWE: ThunderDome!! tang: Simply. it’s another short sighted desperate attempt by the company to remain relevant and not address the systemic issues plaguing their company’s creative direction and output. But... he's right. It is creative and use of the talent that is primarily the problem. A touch up with a new coat of paint will look good for a little while, but is short sighted and won't give them the traction they want long term....
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 20, 2020 13:56:12 GMT -5
Hmmmm, Prichard said Adams couldn't work? So, Adams couldn't work as Demolition Crush, couldn't work as Kona Crush, couldn't work as Evil Crush with Fuji, couldn't work as DOA Crush, and couldn't work as Kronik Crush? Then why the hell hire him back if he couldn't work the first four times? Sure the match wasn't the greatest but Kronik could have gone a lot further in the WWF. Just another way to bury a team that wasn't made in the WWF. They were set up to fail. Yeah I can't remember the timestamp, but it was the episode of STW where they were watching through the whole Nitro where Goldberg defeated Hogan for the WCW title in 1998. Conrad asked Prichard about Brian Adams when he wrestled on that Nitro and the deal when he and Clark came in the WWF at Unforgiven 2001. Basically said he was very limited in the ring and could only do squash type matches.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 20, 2020 11:39:20 GMT -5
I thought KroniK were absolute badasses and enjoyed seeing them destroy guys every week in 2000. Seeing them for a week in Sep 2001 then gone, I was so confused. Bruce Prichard said on an episode of STW that the match blew with Taker and Kane, and both guys in KroniK were protected throughout their careers and couldn't wrestle. Having a 2 vs 2 big hoss match meant they were limited as to what they could do and big guys vs big guys never really worked (didn't stop them trying for DECADES though did it?). KroniK were used to having short squash matches, same as Goldberg. But they threw their hands up at Adams and Clark because they didn't care. Fired Adams for being a liability and Clark got sent for retraining, despite being 10 years into his wrestling career. Disappointing that they couldn't use them, but where could they have fitted them in? Having them fight the APA would have been better initially. Better than squashing Kaientai, or the Hollys. I call major BS on Prichard for saying they couldn't work. Especially Clarke, the guy could go. One of the most under utilised talents of the Monday Night Wars for sure. Well considering that Prichard said those names in that order, and wikipedia says it was the other way around with ADAMS (Crush) being the one sent for retraining... I dunno. I think Bruce is remembering things wrong, and using personal bias. He definitely thought Adams was a liability because of all his backstage issues and getting caught with a large amount of steroids with intent to distribute, plus a hefty collection of firearms....
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 20, 2020 6:05:32 GMT -5
I thought KroniK were absolute badasses and enjoyed seeing them destroy guys every week in 2000.
Seeing them for a week in Sep 2001 then gone, I was so confused.
Bruce Prichard said on an episode of STW that the match blew with Taker and Kane, and both guys in KroniK were protected throughout their careers and couldn't wrestle. Having a 2 vs 2 big hoss match meant they were limited as to what they could do and big guys vs big guys never really worked (didn't stop them trying for DECADES though did it?). KroniK were used to having short squash matches, same as Goldberg. But they threw their hands up at Adams and Clark because they didn't care.
Fired Adams for being a liability and Clark got sent for retraining, despite being 10 years into his wrestling career.
Disappointing that they couldn't use them, but where could they have fitted them in? Having them fight the APA would have been better initially. Better than squashing Kaientai, or the Hollys.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 20, 2020 5:54:40 GMT -5
They really needed credible threats in the Alliance, pushing more WWF talent into the Alliance did not help well as it still became WWF vs WWF. So they needed Hall, Nash, Hogan...
You could say Vince should have just dipped his hand in his pocket and brought in 2-3 main event WCW guys, but they would have needed to be transitioned for a couple of months first and Vince wanted to capitalise on the angle as soon as possible to get a return on his money. Feasibly, I dunno what was possible but he should have waited a little.
I think he should have tried for Flair and Jarrett. Jarrett could have patched things up for the good of the business, and was very adaptable in the ring - also having wrestled in the WWF 2 years before.
Flair was ready, just needed a pay out.
Hall, Nash and Hogan would have hogged the spotlight and commanded massive payouts for their contracts. They preferred sitting at home. However they would have given the angle more credibility.
Scott Steiner was clearly not ready for a transition to the WWF in 2002, so 2001 he'd have needed training up again.
Goldberg would have needed a massive payout, but unlike Hall, Nash and Hogan, would have been less combined. He may have been a bit of a liability and limited in the ring causing clever booking with the top WWF stars. I dunno how comfortable either party would have been.
Bagwell was a crybaby, but maybe they could have disciplined him and had him get back in shape.
Luger was maybe not a bankable star anymore. Not enough people cared about him and he didn't really have any value as a top guy.
Sting wanted nothing to do with the WWF.
Bischoff should have been involved, at least later on. Too many leaders (Shane, Steph, Paul) but remove Steph and put in Bischoff and it would have really worked as a group trying to take over the WWF.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 20, 2020 5:49:07 GMT -5
You are spot on from what I have heard. Triple H was supposed to be the conquering WWF hero, but as he got injured, Kurt Angle had to fill in that role. He would naturally have feuded as a face vs Stone Cold after the Two Man Power Trip imploded, and him vs Austin throughout the Invasion, and sought a divorce against Stephanie.
Say what you will about Triple H always being in the spotlight and not reading fan reactions, but his comeback at RR 2002 was immensely well received and the crowd were thoroughly behind him for a couple of months. He was capable of being a tough SOB and during the Invasion he would have got the crowd behind him HARD.
Kurt undoubtedly would have suffered from this and would have been shafted and possibly pushed into the Alliance as well.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 18, 2020 8:31:50 GMT -5
Love how they called it Thunderdome but the link says Thunder Zone.
Unless, like me, WWE employees still don't understand what this actually means...
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 4, 2020 3:15:48 GMT -5
Funny I was just thinking about this this morning lol, well here is my take: 1. Goldberg should've won the WCW World title at a PPV against Hogan clean 2. nWo DIES because of Goldberg, no more, original Outsiders destroy Hogan after the match 3. Hogan teams up with Goldberg 4. In order to ensure Goldberg's run wasn't going to be stale you would have to make him more vulnerable, take some DQ/CO losses. 5. Keep the title on Goldberg for as long as they could and have him drop to someone like Sting or Bret Hart, someone strong enough to beat him. In theory, this all sounds great. But WCW had a major problem of lacking credible heels. There were faces, then mid-card heels, and tweeners like the Outsiders. Savage, Sid, Scott Steiner were all great heels, but basically unable to carry a main event calibre feud. So they forced Sting to turn heel, which flopped, then Bret, which failed because of his head injury. People didn't want to boo the Outsiders because they were too "cool" at that stage. Hogan wanted a final babyface run, which was the right time. But after all this - they weren't left with many, they hadn't done a great job of building up the next big heels. If you look at the ratings Goldberg was in two of the highest rated matches in Nitro history. Vs Hogan that should have been on PPV and DDP which was supposed to be on PPV. For head to head, the last time Nitro won against Raw in the Monday Night War was actually the night they replayed the Halloween Havoc main event on 10-26-1998. Goldbergs streak came to an end two months after that on 12-27-98. So I think you could argue that DDP should have ended the streak. And it's not like WCW was fine and dandy until Starrcade 98. The cracks were already showing. For sure, they weren't doing great ratings anyway, but Goldberg was still credible and fresh to the product than Flair, Hogan, Savage.... and they just ruined his momentum. He still brought them value and helped their ratings, even a little.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 3, 2020 5:07:31 GMT -5
1999 he’s theme music gets me pumped every time I here it Same here, when I'm walking down the street, in the shower, in the gym, in my car. That beat is so hard. Feels like a badass's theme.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 3, 2020 5:03:44 GMT -5
The following is something that Bruce Prichard said about him in the latest podcast. I got this from wrestlezone... “Diesel was a heel and we made him, we took Diesel away from him, JR starts calling him ‘Kevin.’ I don’t know who the Kevin is. I don’t care who Kevin is. I cared about my guy Diesel and when we humanized him, I think at that moment, Diesel lost all of his momentum when we made him champion the first time as a babyface and tried to present him as a legitimate athlete with legitimate credentials. Who gives a ? Nobody gives a . They want to be entertained, they want characters and there are people that want the legitimacy well then go to something legitimate. If you want story and entertainment then that’s what we’re trying to give and when it got to be a departure from what we had been doing. I think that’s where we lost them. I think that’s where it just became, ‘I don’t want Kevin from Tennessee. I want Diesel. I want the badass.’ “We took him from being a larger than life character and made him the guy next door that goes to college and plays basketball. Wasn’t good enough to go pro. Didn’t play for a major university, and I’m not knocking anybody that plays college athletics in any way shape or form because that’s a different level than, ‘Hey, by God, I made the high school football team or the basketball team.’ Helluva athlete, but if I wanted to watch a mediocre basketball player, you can watch that all day long somewhere. If I want a larger than life, kick ass in’ Diesel, that’s my guy. Not the guy that in’ went in a dorm in east Tennessee. I just hated it, I in’ hated it.” I've disagreed with Bruce on a lot of things he said, but he is spot on here isn't he? This is EXACTLY what I feel they've done to Drew McIntyre right now after his WWE title win. Absolutely none of the intensity and fire we saw from him in 2018/2019 that got fans behind him. Bland, humanized, boring.... This is the repeated type of shiz WWE does and then Vince thinks "this guy isn't as over with the crowd as we expected, let's cut his push". And then we see more of the Orton/Cena/Triple H as champ type stuff..... You reach for the brass ring, then they lift it higher.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 3, 2020 4:53:00 GMT -5
It wasn't too soon. Watch the crowd pop at Starrcade 98. And to the point of Flair-Hogan...In terms of PPV buyrates if you look at the top ten buyrates in WCW history only once did a Goldberg main event PPV make the list, it was Starrcade 98. A PPV that did a better buyrate? ing SuperBrawl 99 with Hogan-Flair in the main event for the title. That's right Hogan-Flair for the title IN 19 MOTHER IN 99 did better numbers than Goldberg during his streak in the main event. But Goldberg was actually pulling in decent ratings for Nitro every time he was on during this time period. Says so in The Death of WCW. In that book they also say Bischoff's plan was to have the NWO regroup (hence the fingerpoke of doom), then for Goldberg to get his heat back by running through every single one of them, en route to reclaiming the WCW title. But it obviously didn't go down, unsurprisingly. They also mention in the book that Goldberg should have NEVER ended the streak, he should have had an undefeated career. Bryan Alvarez was right about many things but this? How could you keep his undefeated streak going, remain interesting, fresh and gripping? It painted WCW into a corner and creatively it gets very difficult to keep topping this type of thing.
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