TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 28, 2020 8:54:48 GMT -5
There was a whole page on a site that compiled a list of stories and tall tales that may have been BS/legend. It was posted on this board YEARS ago in a similar thread but I haven't found the site itself.
One was a ridiculous one of someone pranking Benoit apparently in the late 80s, which made no sense to me for it to be then. But apparently Benoit originated the triple german suplex and his opponent thought it would be funny to e****late onto himself before the match, so that when Chris hooked his arms around the guys' waist, he'd get stuck to him like glue.
Utterly stupid idea if the wrestler thought of it, let alone tried it or even still - if this story was made up, as it sounds incredibly idiotic and gross.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 28, 2020 8:46:44 GMT -5
Been watching a lot of WWF and WCW from 1997/8 lately and keep noticing billed weights for guys seeming way off compared to others. Yes, we all know their announced weights can be all over the place and exaggerated, but what I'm getting at is the most obvious and ridiculous over-embellishing that went on and in spite of other guys looking larger but somehow being billed as lighter if you use other guys' height:weight size ratio. Let me give a few examples: Lex Luger being billed as 261 lbs in January 1998's Souled Out. But DDP was repeatedly referred to as 270lbs by Tony Schiavone and Bobby Heenan in 1997. DDP was supposedly 1 inch shorter than Luger, so although height sometimes factors in, it couldn't do here. DDP has been billed in the past as 250lbs-ish. But even that seems a bit much. He is tall and very lean. Similar to Scott Hall. Now Hall has a lot more mass, but at 6'7, he's billed at 287lbs. Again, it doesn't seem right based on his size. Especially since Hollywood Hogan is billed at 6'7 (maybe a shoot 6'5/6'6), and only 275lbs, but looks very slightly bigger than Hall. There are many examples of this throughout wrestling. But where's the consistency? Is it just made up on a guess and stuck with? Obviously it usually is done with respect to other wrestlers. From what I can tell, sometimes the billed weights are around 20lbs more than what the guy legit weighs. I believe Shawn Michaels is commonly referred to as 210lbs soaking wet by many ex-wrestlers. But his billed weight was 227lbs. Which is actually believable. But it brings into question other guys for me. Ken Shamrock was billed as 235lbs. But so was Bret Hart and yet Shamrock is one inch taller and looks way bigger due to his muscle mass. Then later in 1998 Shamrock was billed at 241lbs, despite looking no different. So my questions are: What do you guys think classic wrestlers' weights actually were or should have been?
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 27, 2020 13:18:20 GMT -5
I don't know about being the champion.
He would have been better with the WHC, but they obviously had soft plans for the next 6 months at that point (Triple H returning and winning the RR and main eventing WM18). RVD as champ would have had to have been done at this point in 2001, but I don't think it was the right call.
Never been a fan of short title reigns just for the sake of it. RVD with the belt? Cool, I was a massive fan. But they were scouting him out as a top-level guy and I think they realised he couldn't hold the top spot.
He was over like crazy, and I don't think he would ever be as over again. He had so much going for him back then, so it was the best chance in his career looking back, but maybe not the best business decision other than a cool moment.
I think they needed to build him up more and help him carry a main event feud. They tried with Triple H and RVD the following year and it lasted like a month, partially because they didn't think he could sustain it.
He needed his inadequacies hidden (speaking) and accentuate his positives. But in history if you look at the champions, they needed to talk and hold segments and sell feuds. RVD didn't have IT at a top level. I don't think he ever did.
He was more capable as a big fish in a smaller pond like ECW and TNA.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 25, 2020 17:37:45 GMT -5
Wow that Test idea is phenomenal, its like just keep sticking it to him until he blows up into a heel. It would have been interesting to see if he could have carried that role for that long because to your point the moment they pretty much gave up on Test getting revenge on Triple H was the moment he was toast. Haha Test was toast. I dunno if it would have worked like I'm saying, but I feel it could have if all fell into place. I definitely think the crowd would turn on him despite his innocence, and he would snap, like a no more mister nice guy. I think it's pretty obvious "someone" didn't like Test, and the only pushes Test got were when that "someone" was out injured. True that, and Russo was the one who advocated for Test's push so once he was gone, that was it.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 25, 2020 3:23:27 GMT -5
I still maintain repeatedly that they could have built up Test and made it him who was "framed" to run over Austin. Test was still pretty over in late 1999 thanks to his storyline with Stephanie, and they wasted him after she went with Triple H, literally leaving him with nothing. He had no vengeance or vendetta towards HHH stealing her away from him, making him look like a simp and then becoming just another guy on the roster. But if they kept him hot and wanting revenge on Triple H, then popular over 2000, it could have worked. I would have Triple H steal Stephanie like he did, then run over Austin, but frame Test for it to make his life fall apart. There would be some grainy CCTV footage of a light-coloured, long haired guy with a goatee driving the car. And it would look like Test but was actually Triple H. Test would get framed by him and have to defend himself against Austin but gain sympathy from the crowd as it wasn't him. Maybe turn heel because of the reaction, but he could have been made a bigger deal. Triple H would be revealed as the actual guy who ran over Austin and then the same feud develops that we saw. Although I agree with Evil Abed in that Benoit would have been an excellent candidate for the guy who did it, instead of Rikishi. Benoit stood to gain way more heel heat and was already over like rover back then.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 21, 2020 8:12:38 GMT -5
That's literally my stance, and along with DX taking the living p*** out of him constantly - he was just made to be a little ankle biter rather than an attack dog. Unfortunately, we all know that if Vince wanted Owen to go over at WM14 - HHH and HBK would have kicked up a major fuss and threatened to not do the job. Vince placated to them too often to go back this one time. Playing devils advocate here, HHH really had to go over Owen at WrestleMania, Shawn was losing and HHH needed to be the strong new leader of DX so they could not have him lose as well. It was a really tough situation for Owen to be honest. I love Shawn Michaels and HHH, but I am not blind to the bullcrap that they pulled from 96-98. However, in this case I have always felt that Owen was more a victim of bad circumstances than he was someone having it in for him. Absolutely, 100%. HHH SHOULD have gone over and looked strong for the new era, and yes for Owen it was just unfortunate. But we all know that in wrestling - you don't s*** on the guy leading up to the match and then make him lose. Otherwise that constitutes: 1. going into business for oneself and making the other guy look really bad, 2. A burial, or 3. ruins the other guys' reputation and possibly career. And we basically saw all 3, if not 2 of these. Shawn and Trips' relentless pursuit of ridiculing Owen and making him look bad meant Owen losing basically derailed his character and then he had no edge left. They didn't even have to not be DX. When HBK feuded with Austin or Taker, they were still up to their same DX antics, but they still sold for both men and made them look like threats. For Owen, they basically buried him and ruined any chance of him being taken as a top guy. All the momentum for him coming back in December with a vendetta and new gimmick, were lost because of this. And it was a shame. Owen losing was not the problem. Owen being in the right place at the wrong time, was a bigger issue, but they still could have protected him.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 21, 2020 2:45:25 GMT -5
You’re right that the main event scene was pretty packed with HBK, Austin, and Taker. So, logically the next best thing is for Owen to go after HHH and Chyna. The problem is that he was never promoted as a credible threat. He was treated as a joke from the get-go and lost at WM14 when logical booking says that he should have won. Vince never seemed to want to push Owen as a credible main event threat post 1994, and after Bret was gone, nobody was there to prevent him from being booked as a joke. I think Owen could have absolutely played a great tweener as a thorn in the side of DX. The problem was that his booking didn’t allow for that. That's literally my stance, and along with DX taking the living p*** out of him constantly - he was just made to be a little ankle biter rather than an attack dog. Unfortunately, we all know that if Vince wanted Owen to go over at WM14 - HHH and HBK would have kicked up a major fuss and threatened to not do the job. Vince placated to them too often to go back this one time.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 20, 2020 13:35:05 GMT -5
Did Owen ever intend to leave post Screwjob but was denied or did he try being the loyal employee and stay? If he had considered staying I can see Vince holding it against him. If not, I can see Vince wanting to try something. HHH and Shawn were pretty disgusting back then. I hate seeing HHH in any position of power now but I won't go too far off topic... I think the Austin injury is what hurt Owen the most. He had no business doing the piledriver even if it was technically an Undertaker move. He wasn't used to doing it, same goes for Austin in 1992 with Masa Chono. Austin WAS going to be the savior of WWF if he had not been already. If no Austin in late 1997, early 1998 WWF is absolutely screwed. Even Undertaker, Shawn or early heel Rock really weren't ready to take WWF to the next level like Austin was. Austin's physical career was never really the same. But it made absolutely no large enough difference that the WWF suffered for it, so don't make it out to be worse than it actually was. Austin's in ring roughneck style benefitted his character - no amount of more technical work would make any impact whatsoever, despite his skills beforehand. Even with Austin taking time out from August to November 1997 - the WWF didn't suffer. From Nov 1999 - Sep 2000, they didn't suffer. When Austin walked out in mid 2002 - they didn't suffer due to it. And his retirement in 2003 didn't greatly negatively impact them. What did and what started the downfall of the WWF creatively - was Austin's heel turn. Which had absolutely nothing to do with his injury. So all in all - what happened, happened. The WWF still went on to be a juggernaut and the injury didn't derail things at all. So it's pointless to shift the topic of this conversation onto Owen making an unfortunate mistake.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 20, 2020 5:42:13 GMT -5
Who could ever forget this:
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 19, 2020 18:07:21 GMT -5
Vince has never had any idea how to book giants, going back to Andre. The only time that Big Show was booked correctly was his ECW run in 2006. Or Heyman's time with the pen in 2002/3 when he booked Show as a big heel against Lesnar (tanktop and slacks era) Even his debut was a huge fail. He comes though the ring, throws Austin through the cage, winning him the match as a bloody Vince looks on. Booking wise it made him look like a fool by botching his attack on Austin. He was a former WCW champion and a huge signing so a monstrous debut where he obliterates Austin would've made him look a serious threat. His debut was a shocker...from a booking point of view? It made no sense. He should have came through the crowd & obliterated Austin AFTER he beat Vince. His intro should have been a surprise to Vince..and Wight offers him his services there & then. But his intro was huge foreshadowing....Vince should have been losing the cage match straight up to Austin. They weren't gonna wrestle again? so what was the point of this at all? His debut just shows you what he really thought of Show.... Literally my thoughts exactly. I was thinking similar to Booker T coming into the WWF, where he attacked Austin post match. Albeit with the shock and destruction you mentioned.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 19, 2020 17:54:05 GMT -5
After watching episodes of Raw in 1997 for the first time in my life, I have been noticing things with today's wisdom that I can reflect on with a critical brain. One being how Owen Hart was wasted upon returning for revenge against HBK after he screwed Bret at Survivor Series 1997. Now, granted, WWF stayed the original trajectory and kept the title program of HBK vs Undertaker and then Stone Cold. Meaning Owen would find it hard to fit in there. But he returned at In Your House: D-Generation X and was RED HOT. The fans were solidly behind him and wanted to see him kick HBK and Triple H's asses. But it fizzled out by January 1998 and they basically ridiculed him to the point he did not seem a credible threat. After watching it back, I can sum up three things: - Owen was on fire and the crowd were solidly behind him - DX basically mocked him to no end (even after the "nugget" promo, which he overcame initially), and his momentum was lost pretty fast because after 2 weeks, they didn't make him out to be a credible threat, making him slip down the ranks and feud with HHH (logical, since HBK was preoccupied with his Taker and Austin feuds). - Owen just could not convey the intensity or passion he needed to act like DX's kryptonite or a badass SOB. His promos were a little cartoony - "Triple H: I'm going to kick your butt!". His facial expressions were silly (gritting his teeth). His conviction in his promos was just not there. So all in all, there was potential. But between DX constantly ripping him and his lack of credibility (due to himself being more family-friendly and management not being behind him fully), he just slipped down the card and the lustre wore off. I seriously think he could have been a top guy with his Black Hart gimmick, playing off the "breaking bones", and maybe having more of an edge and actually keeping up the mean streak rather than trying to convince us he had one (and then not proving it). But it just seemed not to be his calling. It's a shame because I do believe he was capable, but it wasn't meant to be. Anybody else have any suggestions how it could have worked out?
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 19, 2020 17:38:48 GMT -5
I was a fan of Ahmed in 1996 and he was being pushed to the moon. And why does Ron Simmons get a pass for being so unprofessional that he legit injured a guy ON PURPOSE and might have essentially cost him his career. It NEVER gets talked about when people discuss Simmons, and people always crap on Ahmed because he couldn't stay healthy like the initial injury in 96 was his fault. When did this happen exactly? 1996 or 1997? Also - I find it interesting that they ran a story back in September 1997 when Faarooq hits a spinebuster and it caused internal bleeding of Shamrock *he was coughing up blood). Then in December 1997 they bring it up again as a vicious attack Shamrock suffered a couple of months before. They made out that Faarooq caused major damage, but it didn't seem to be taken as a lingering issue nor linking it to how Simmons caused internal bleeding to Ahmed Johnson before that. So makes me wonder if it was supposed to be a legit angle or it was just an accident. They could have made more out of it like Faarooq was a street-tough, hard-nosed bastard who liked to injure his opponents, but they just settled on street-tough. Their ongoing story called for The Rock to be made as the star of the NOD and Faarooq was just the leader getting pushed out, so there was no reason to to give him something more substantial. I could go on about missed opportunities that I notice in my watching of WWF Raw in 1997 but they stayed the course and didn't go with the flow as much. A shame but still kicked ass.
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TheXtremisT
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 19, 2020 5:15:35 GMT -5
I just watched the Raw after the 98 RR, and he was well received by the crowd in Fresno, CA. The RR was in San Diego I believe - and they didn't give a s*** when he came out, so I don't get it.
Having said that this Raw crowd were also getting behind the D.O.A early on in the show too, so they seemed easy to please. But Johnson got a massive pop and was looking better than the night before. His intensity got the crowd going.
This was the night Tyson was on the show too so maybe they were extra pumped up.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 18, 2020 2:37:01 GMT -5
That was literally one of the reasons I made this thread. Just watched the Rumble that year and he s*** all over him. Which stuck out for JR like you said. I knew then and there they didn;t want him in the company any more. Do you remember after he got eliminated, Kama was entering and he pushed Johnston as they walked past on the ramp? I wonder if he had heat with the other wrestlers too. Yep thought that too and just seemed out of place and Johnson just looked at him and walked off like a puss. Definitely wasn't scripted. Also thought it was weird him going after Phineas for eliminating him as no-one else in the match attacked their eliminator like that and he could barely walk when trying to attack Phineas. So Kama pushing him and then walking to the ring - Johnson had to shrug it off because there was no way he could get revenge in the state he was in. All in all it made Johnson look pathetic.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 17, 2020 14:19:23 GMT -5
Ron Simmons deserves a lot of blame for his career getting killed early on. Even as a kid I could tell him kicking Ahmed was way too much for what you normally saw on TV but...That's just Ron being Ron, he's paid his dues, a locker room leader so IT's OK. It's all Ahmed's fault for not being able to take it from a respected veteran like Ron, right??? Poor Ahmed was never the same. He was definitely put on a high pedestal by Vince McMahon and up until the injury from Ron he was succeeding. I think over time with the Rock and Austin and better wrestlers and talkers coming in he would have gone down on the card but who really would know if it weren't for the injury. You could tell how much disdain Jim Ross had for him (and Vader) in the 1998 Rumble. JR would talk up even the worst, most useless and worthless workers but he had nothing much to say about either guy and what he did say wasn't very positive, especially Ahmed. That was literally one of the reasons I made this thread. Just watched the Rumble that year and he s*** all over him. Which stuck out for JR like you said. I knew then and there they didn;t want him in the company any more.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 16, 2020 17:17:30 GMT -5
I have watched all of the Raws from 1997 and I'm up to RR 1998, where Ahmed comes out into the RR itself, to absolutely no fanfare and he can barely stay on his feet, instantly looks gassed (despite only kicking and punching) and JR/Lawler instantly rip into him as he comes out. What's funny is JR said he talked to Johnson before the RR and says he's at 100% after being out with an injury for like 4 months, but in the RR he's stumbling, can't move at all and doesn't look like his knees can support him. And what's worse is he didn't even get a reaction from the crowd after being out for months. Usually as we know, being away and returning can net you a big pop. But he gets nothing. If I remember correctly he turned heel and joined the NOD, which had so much potential and looked interesting, after feuding with Faarooq and the former incarnation of the Nation - whilst consistently getting big pops from the crowd every time he was on tv, he was one of the top faces in the company. I became a fan thanks to his intensity. But then he got injured like a week later, got booted out of the NOD, returned a month later (way too soon) as a face again (but the crowd didn't care), worked hurt and very sloppy for a couple of months and started a pseudo-feud with Stone Cold for a month, before needing time off again and quietly disappearing. Feuding with Austin did him no favours as Austin was red hot and Johnson wasn't a heel. The fact he also was a face/tweener meant the crowd did not care one bit for him. So all this combined caused his star power in the eyes of the fans fizzle out, that when he returned at the RR98, no-one seemed to care. His sloppy in-ring work and reputation backstage caused him to fall out of favour. I had heard that management wanted him to fight and lose to Chyna but he didn't want to lose to a woman. But I question this as I heard recently he was released in Feb 1998, but Chyna didn't start wrestling until the following year. All in all - any thoughts or stories? I feel this dude had so much potential as a big bastard who could bring the fight when needed and looked convincing.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 12, 2020 11:24:31 GMT -5
Headbangers were tag champs in 1997, that's how they got in. So were the Godwins, but they didn't make it...
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 12, 2020 9:21:20 GMT -5
SvR 06 was released in October of 2005 and the game started developing pretty much a year before that. So the final roster decisions were made in the beginning of 2005. Some names you mentioned, like MNM, didn't appear till April of that year so they wouldn't have been included. So by your logic, Umaga and The Great Khali shouldn't have been in SvR 07, but they were and they debuted in April 2006 too. The cut off point for character models is usually May if you compare to past games, but in earlier games these were slightly later, say July/Aug (like Shut Your Mouth having models and movesets for Rey Mysterio, Batista and Jamie Noble. All of whom debuted in June that year, therefore their models were presumably developed in July/Aug but weren't completed, hence why they were in CAW mode only. Obviously the earlier games they didn't have to go as in depth with the models and animations. But if Khali and Umaga were in the WWE in April 2006 and made it to the game, then MNM and Deuce n Domino should have been included in the years they debuted. In this case I'd say it may have come down to WWE's in put and choices of who to make, and how big of a deal they would be on tv long-term.
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 12, 2020 9:00:14 GMT -5
Been watching some WWF in 1997 and thought how there were so many wrestlers who could have been featured in Acclaim's WWF War Zone but never made it, despite the game coming out in August 1998 and being so outdated by that point that Bret and Bulldog had been gone for 10 months at that point. Yet they had Owen's danger attire, Goldust's T.A.F.K.A attires.... I get it would take them longer to make character models than attires, but it baffles me that they included say the Headbangers, who were barely featured in WWF programming at the time, but not other more prominent stars. For example: - The New Age Outlaws (came together late in 1997, but they had time to make them and were heavily featured on the shows since September 1997) - Vader (featured less after Survivor Series 1997, but Ahmed Johnson was in the game and hadn't been properly on Raw since summer 1997) - LOD (literally would have been more appealing than the Headbangers) - Marc Mero (not as popular but he would have padded out the roster nicely and was still featured every week after he came back from injury in October 1997) - Brian Christopher (similar to Marc Mero - had been on programming every single week for much of 1997) Acclaim stepped up their game with WWF Attitude which featured over 35 wrestlers, as opposed to War Zone's 16. But by comparison, it was a small game. Any others you could add in your opinion? Were any other wrestlers rumoured at one point?
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 9, 2020 17:53:28 GMT -5
The first year (2010) was epic.
Awesome line ups and wrestler choices - 4 DI waves, 3 CTL 2-packs, a Ruthless Aggression wave, Classic wave, 2 exclusives and even started on knockouts with Velvet Sky and Daffney.
The details for the first 3 DIs blew me away. No skimping on tattoos, they got most of the logos on the attires....
Price point was nice a cheap compared to Mattel. I loved them.
DI 4 had some details missing on the figures, but I didn't think much of it. Unfortunately, that was the dawn of the end. Literally 1 full year of greatness, and then it went to s***.
To sum up in 2011:
LOTR 2 - cancelled. DI 5 got delayed a couple of months and they cut Mr Anderson from the line up. Went down from 6 figures in a wave to 5, and slotted in Raven to make up for the cancellation of LOTR 2.
Less details on the figures than previous waves.
Kurt Angle's camo exclusive got cancelled.
DI 6 was stalled 6 months until the end of 2011. Doug Williams' figure was outright cancelled.
They showed us several new figures (mock ups and customs mostly) at SDCC 2011, but ultimately, not a single one saw the light of day (that hadn't already been announced).
We did get some nice exclusives however (Hardy 2 pack, Jeff vs RVD, Earl Hebner, classic Sting, classic AJ and a couple more).
Then in 2012 we got further delays and waves reduced down to 4 figures, we did see the Mr Anderson rescheduled from DI 5 though. But then it was apparent the waves would just be repaints from then on.
The line limped on through 2013 and basically had ended there.
We did get a whole bunch of exclusives to tide us over between the DI waves, but the damage was done and the ship was sinking fast. The TV product also made more holes in the ship to expedite its sinking. So it was doomed regardless.
But Jakks could have done better. Many misteps and they were reluctant to invest in new production. Ultimately the distribution and product awareness/popularity (the TV show AND the figures) were the reasons this failed, not the older DA style bodies. Even if they invested in new scale parts, they would have suffered. But it would have helped them more.
A shame, as for years I loved my DI figures, I had one of every wrestler made in the line and I've all but sold 2 of them now....
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